Does the word of God seem really confusing sometimes?


I found this letter in my email and have had little success in getting it past the censors on anti-Zionist sites. It is rather telling and funny to boot.

Things to remember when quoting the bible and persecuting people.

Laura Schlessinger dispenses sex advice to people who call in to her radio show. Recently, she said that as an observant Orthodox Jew homosexuality is to her an abomination according to Leviticus 18:22 and cannot be condoned in any circumstance. Here are a few questions for her–

“Dear Dr. Laura.

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God’s Law. I have learned a great deal from your radio show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific Bible laws and how to follow them.

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odour for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbours bitch to the zoning people. They claim the odour is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. What do you think would be a fair price for her? She’s 18 and starting college. Will the slave buyer be required to continue to pay for her education by law?

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offence and threaten to call Human Resources.

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighbouring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify?

Why can’t I own Canadians? Is there something wrong with them due to the weather?

e) I have a neighbour who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should this be a neighbourhood improvement project? What is a good day to start? Should we begin with small stones? Kind of lead up to it?

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don’t agree. I mean, a shrimp just isn’t the same as a you-know-what.

Can you settle this?

g) Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here? Would contact lenses fall within some exception?

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they die? The Mafia once took out Albert Anastasia in a barbershop, but I’m not Catholic; is this ecumenical thing a sign that it’s ok?

i) I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev.24:10-16) Couldn’t we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God’s word is eternal and unchanging.

Your devoted disciple and adoring fan.”

T.F.

http://theuglytruth.podbean.com

Please check out the brand new book detailing Israel’s deliberate attack on the USS LIBERTY here

  1. #1 by Emily Windsor-Cragg on February 14, 2010 - 11:21 pm

    If a person has called on God for deliverance, accept responsibility for his or her own behavior, repented of and forgiven others for the past,

    … then Scripture is not confusing at all.

    A human being who sees the difference between Hypocrisy and Sincerity will understand that Jesus [Yeshua] repented of senseless and repetitive practices and brought about a simplification of the Law into a few Principles of Justice, Fairness and Mercy.

    But if you’re stuck where you are–either in ideology or your own preferences–none of this will make any sense.

    : )

  2. #2 by Destroyer on February 15, 2010 - 12:16 am

    Seems the good Lord enjoys watching his creation chase their tails.

  3. #3 by badbear on February 15, 2010 - 1:43 am

    Understand your point. She is using the old Jewish Law to make her case about being against homosexuality but then disregards the other laws that make her uncomfortable.
    Personally, I don’t need the old law to tell me that homosexuality is wrong. There is enough other support in the Bible to show us how God feels about it, not to mention the Laws of Nature. It is fornication the same as a person having pre-marital sex, a married person cheating on their spouse, a pedophile abusing a child or a participant in beastiality, necrophelia or any of the other 400 plus types of sexual deviation that I don’t even want to think about. I don’t believe the Lord holds any one of these acts any worse than the other, although an argument can be made towards the acts involving children. They seem to be judged more severely… the millstone around the neck verse comes to mind.
    We should try to help those caught up in these abominable lifestyles. They are still our brothers and sisters. Christ died for them as well as everyone else. I know folks who have come out of alcoholism and other sinful lifestyles who are pillars in the church today. One of the apostles, I believe Paul, referenced a crowd that was formally involved in these sins, (the verse where he says “as some of you were”) so we know it is possible to get out of the grip of Satan.
    Another point I’d like to make. The young folks whose minds are being molded by a decadent society and school system, attack us older ones saying that we’re gay-bashing and bigoted. I would like to point out that it only looks this way because the squeaky wheel is getting the oil right now. The homosexual movement is militant and in our face. They are trying to change the morality of the country/world through legislation. We aren’t seeing this from any other groups, although I expect the same out of proponents of pedophiles and participants in beastiality in the future. Some college professors are already pushing for it. We have at least one Supreme Court Justice (Ginsberg) who condones it. The man/woman cheating on his wife/husband has always been condemned in my church and I’m 52 years old. I don’t see a group of these guys or gals marching down my street telling me I have to accept them though.

  4. #4 by Reverwnd Pope on February 15, 2010 - 2:07 am

    Interestingly, the Bible does not outlaw Lesbianism.

    Actually, it does when it says “if a man lay with a man or a woman lay with a woman”

  5. #5 by Clem Kadiddlehopper on February 15, 2010 - 2:52 am

    Old Testament = OLD CONTRACT; NULL AND VOID. God’s grace does not depend upon the words you profess, but the love in your heart. Besides, She cares about you whatever your station or situation!

  6. #6 by xcept2010 on February 15, 2010 - 4:03 am

    Very interesting article.
    My take is that homosexuality is also addressed in Romans of the New Testament. Christ came to tear down the superiority issues of the priests. Also so that all have grace and are equal. Whether gay or not, they can all come back to Christ. Premarital sex is just as bad as homosexuality in Gods eyes. All is sin and in need of redemption. As my good friends Martin steen once said. Just consider the facts, not the assumptions.

  7. #7 by Paul on February 15, 2010 - 4:24 am

    Nice that you find scripture so non-confusing Emily. I guess the trouble starts when people go from just reading it to actually thinking about. I find the absence of troublesome critical thinking a refreshing characteristic of American christians.

  8. #8 by Joe on February 15, 2010 - 4:51 am

    Dr. Laura should remember than when she points a finger she has 3 pointing back at herself.

  9. #9 by rgl on February 15, 2010 - 5:34 am

    Religion … the bane of civilization; the determined effort to retard the process of the acquisition, and use of natural law; organized crime; paedophilia protection agency.

  10. #10 by jackie cox on February 15, 2010 - 8:04 am

    The onlt thing eternal and unchanging is truth, certainly not Constantines attempt to merge chriatianity( the religion of the servants, slaves, hirelings) with paganism, or the jewish kings writing up a tale of magic to empower them eternally, a tale around 3,000 years old, the blink of an eye in periods of time

  11. #11 by Michael on February 15, 2010 - 10:06 am

    ISAIAH 28:10 KJV is the starting point in the Bible when it seems confusing…The Bible interprets itself…Old Testament = not null & not void but,interprets New Testament…The Two are One…Jesus came & only eliminated 2 things > Priesthood & Sacrifices…ALL THE LAWS ARE STILL IN EFFECT…Isaiah 34:16-Seek God’s word…2nd Chronicles 1:9-12-Pray for wisdom & knowledge…

  12. #12 by Edgar on February 15, 2010 - 10:22 am

    GOD reflects the intelligence that created him.

  13. #13 by Jeannon Kralj on February 15, 2010 - 12:35 pm

    The Mosaic Law and all “613″ of its “commandments” is now over with. However the “Ten Commandments” which are woven throughout the Mitzvoh or 613 commandments are not over with.

    Most of the questions asked of Schlenger have to do with those of 613 that do not relate to the ten commandments.

    There is all manner of sexual sin and homosexual practice is just one of them.

    Non orthodox Jews seem to have worked hard through USA history and law and society to equate sinful sexual practice with “freedom”.

    I am still learning about all of this and have read Dr. Robert Sungenis and Dr. E. Michael Jones (latest book “The REvolutionary Jew” for most of what I consider valid information.

    The Abrahamic covenant was true for the Jewish people and is still binding but basically that has been fulfilled in Jesus Christ too.

    When a person accepts Jesus Christ (under His terms) one is no longer a “Jew” or a “gentile” or “Greek” or a “slave.” We are children of God, brothers and sisters in Christ, and sometimes called “Christians”.

    All I know is the way one interprets the Old Testament must be based on a reading through the lens of the New Testament. Not all “Jews” killed Christ, but some individual Jews did kill Christ. It is not possible to refer to “the Jews” collectively and make judgments about their individual souls. That is wrong. That is a sin. However the fact that “the Jews” generally rejected Christ when He came to them seems to explain what secular Jews have done to the world and to the USA. The rejection of Christ is extremely important to understanding all what people say about “Zionism” and “the Jews”. Additionally the understanding that the Church of Jesus Christ has replaced the Mosaic Convenant is crucial to understanding the world today.

    I am not “anti-semitic” but I do think that I am “anti-Zionist.” It was fine if a group of people want to move to some land and start a nation, but it is not fine for the USA to finance and go along with the national policies of that nation, policies which are wrong in every way, including wrong in what the Old and New Testaments say.

  14. #14 by Hans von Pumpernickel der Ruffhaus on February 15, 2010 - 12:40 pm

    Is the Bible confusing? At times it can seem to be contradictory. However, people need to understand that we no longer are in the dispensation of the law, but in the dispensation of grace. God requires holiness and righteousness. The law was to shut the mouth, that there “was none that doeth good, no not one”. NOBODY in history has come even close to following the old Hebrew laws, except for Yehshua (Jesus Christ). The animals sacrificed in the tabernacle or the temple were sacrificed for “remission” of sins, which IS not “forgiveness”. Jesus Christ fulfilled the law. The perfect sacrifice was made with Him at the cross. How do we nowadays obtain righteuosness and forgiveness? By trusting that Christ died for our sins. There is NOTHING you can do to obtain righteuosness. Your works are useless, vain attempts at appeasing God. Trusting in the blood of Christ, shed on YOUR behalf, is what makes you righteous. And, it’s not your righteousness, but His, that is put on your account.

    That is not so hard or confusing, now is it? Rightly divide the word of truth (2nd Tim. 2:15 KJV), and you will understand the things that are promised to us in this, the dispensation of grace. Be thankful that we are under grace, which is a gift of God (Eph. 2: 8-9 KJV). The ticket window to grace is about to close. You are not guaranteed another breath.

  15. #15 by flek on February 15, 2010 - 12:40 pm

    Homosexuality has been with humans since recorded history.
    Some cultures accept it, others abhorred it as an abomination.
    This is one of the aspects of humanity we use against each other
    to divide the population to better control it. Similar to:
    religion, race, eugenics, country of origin, belief structure…etc.
    If one does not believe in a certain religious morality, then one
    has no issue with homosexuality. Those that do believe seem to pick homosexuality
    as a ‘prime concern’ in society while ignoring nearly everything else.
    Killing comes to mind….eh Christians In Action?

  16. #16 by american on February 15, 2010 - 12:44 pm

    Greetings,

    While this is a funny email, it also sacrilegious, irreverent, and blasphemous. God is not mocked. Don’t poke fun at things you don’t understand, particularly the Bible. It offends God and invites His Wrath.

    The reason that we have thousands of Protestant sects is that they do not agree on the interpretation of the Bible or how to merit salvation through Jesus Christ.

    It should be obvious from this email and the fracturing of Protestant sects that private interpretation of the Bible does not work. And as scripture teaches us, will lead to our own destruction. See: http://www.protestanterrors.com/#8

    The proper Christian and legal term for unnatural acts is sodomy, and those who practice it are sodomites. The people of Lesbos are getting sick and tired of being called female sodomites. Consequently, they are suing in court because they are the real Lesbians.

    Most every religion condemns sodomy, and up until recently, even the Protestant sects agreed that it was a grave sin. But then, they used to condemn contraception along with the Catholic Church up until the 20th century, too.

    The Federal Council of Churches, the predecessor of the National Council of Churches, endorsed the “careful and restrained” use of contraceptives in the early 1930s. Immediately after the release of this statement, the Washington Post thundered back in a blistering editorial that the notion that people would use contraceptives in a careful and restrained manner was preposterous – of course it would lead to immorality. The Post also said that the usage of contraceptives would lead to the destruction of Marriage as a Holy Institution and a host of other moral ills. How right they were.

    After all, even Sigmund Freud, a non-observant Jew, stated that any attempt to interfere with childbearing, the natural resulf of the marital act, is a perversion of it. And what is sodomy but the ultimate perversion of the Sacrament of Matrimony? After all, Matrimony is derived from the word “Mother.”

  17. #17 by mark salek on February 15, 2010 - 12:44 pm

    The reason christ came to earth was to tell mankind that the old testament laws are mean and they suck. Hence his teaching which are contained in the new testiment are to replace the old law contained in the old testiment Of course the jews, the scolfied born againers and many others who don’t toss the old testiment in the trashcan still walk around with funny hats and go around killing people and stoneing them to death and vote for the war party every time.

  18. #18 by jujube on February 15, 2010 - 12:53 pm

    Those pesky Torah details…

  19. #19 by Meatwad on February 15, 2010 - 1:00 pm

    Seems people have not gotten the word yet. The hebrew authors of their books have one thing in common that makes it a mute point, they plagiarized the legends and myths of surrounding peoples and inserted their own hebrewish names in places of heroship and prophecy. Speaking of prophecy, how does any jew accept that isreal when none of the “prophecies” have somer true, as your own words of your own god has labeled those prophecies. I know I klnow, they want us to think one prophecy was come true in ww2, but the methods and numbers fail at every examination of that prophecy. Then there are the others that have failed to pass like hwere is their messiah being held prisoner at, yet the jew wants his isreal BEFORE his gods prophecies are to come true??? Seems like demons and dragons playing with woolen covers. ANY abrahamic faith is an extension of the hebrewish lies of prophecy and god, for they too are nothing but the rotten fruit fallen from the rotten tree of the abraham tribe. I’m sorry my muslum friends, yes yours too is the bad fruit of the jew tree, there is no way according to the legends to make a good pie from the rotten fruit of the bad tree. Your Mohammed is just as spoiled as the christian hope.

    Any of you that had paid attention to the religion section of the free online video Zeitgeist, why would you still belong to the bad tree of the hebrewish plagiarized myths and be proud of your foolishness? Cults gangs and greed.

  20. #20 by Capt Canuck on February 15, 2010 - 1:31 pm

    My goodness! How can ANYONE take the Bibles (Old or New), the Qu’uran or Talmud seriously?! I don’t need some book to tell me not to kill, steal or even covet another man’s wife.

    And BTW, Jesus and the New Testament said the the Old Testament’s laws STILL STAND! To wit:

    “For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” Matthew 5:18-19

    or

    “It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid.” Luke 16:17

    or

    “Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.” Matthew 5:17

    “Old laws” not in effect huh? What about:

    “Whoever curses father or mother shall die” Mark 7:10

    And there’s more like examples I could post. The so-called “perfect” word of god is a sham. A means to control the masses. People wonder why there’s so much religious based conflict?! Contradictions ABOUND in each of the Abrahamic religions. There are verses to justify just about any so-called abomination. Pick a book, any book and there will be nasty stuff in there.But that’s OK because cherry-picking is a religious specialty.

    We must STOP with this religious BS. We are spiritual beings, but the spiritual fulfillment comes not by paying dues at a church but by actual deeds. If one merely strives to be a decent person whilst going though life spiritual fulfillment comes by being true to one’s self and others and embodying one’s self with basic compassion for their “neighbour”.

    Some of the most self-righteous, people haters have been so-called religious people. Some good ones too though don’t get me wrong. But even they can be blinded by their books.

    In the last 100 years, not ONE of the major wars was necessary or justified considering the lives lost. Profit and Power were the REAL reasons for those massacres. But as long as money was made and power obtained, it’s allllll good! But in each one of those wars, we actually thought that the other sides were “evil”. How can a whole country of people be evil?!?

    Then it became “evil regimes” that must be brought down in the name of that country’s poor innocent people, who will still die by the thousands though. As long as money was made and power gained, it’s alllll good! The Crusade must be successful!

    Take off your blinders people! Forget about the greatest diversion in man’s history. Facts should be your god and education your penance. Humans cannot grow and evolve without the unfettered ability to learn. We are being lied to about what’s what.

    Electricity abounds in the Universe and Nikola Tesla knew how to tap into it. He was on the verge of supplying all of the Earth with UNLIMITED, WIRELESS POWER, but it was scuttled and Tesla ruined by JP Morgan. But where is that knowledge?!? And why isn’t it being used for good, not bad (e.g. HAARP)?

    Because we are BLIND AND STUPID. And religion is one way to accomplish this mass stupidity. It is a child-like cop-out. How did this happen? God did it! How did we come to be? God did it! Every question with the same answer. But let me tell you, we have the capabilities TODAY, to solve all of our so-called problems. We really could be “like gods” if allowed to. Hunger and poverty would be but a memory. We could travel to the stars in short periods of time. War would be useless as it could evaporate all life much more effectively than nukes and possibly even physically destroy Earth by harnessing the Universe’s infinite amounts electromagnetic power.

    But we must first make that leap across the chasm. If there is indeed one supreme being, then those books are not its words I assure you! We must follow our innate ability to strive for betterment. We must remove the profit motive, all usury, and use sound money practices. We must classify religion as a historical relic to be learned from anthropologically.

    Wake up for the sake of our species! Enlightenment is out there in the form of Universal Knowledge. But many paradigms need changing! We are so close to making the evolutionary leap! Our technological capabilities, our REAL capabilities are incredible. Humans are mostly compassionate but we are being controlled! Humankind has been hijacked. I am no sure by whom, but the lies being perpetrated upon us all points to this conspiracy. Our sciences have been hijacked and our halls of policy making have been stolen. We must take them back!

    Cast off the yolks of religious bondage and view the world through thine own eyes!

    Peace

    Capt Canuck

  21. #21 by Lee on February 15, 2010 - 1:49 pm

    in my studies and research “God” as a man does NOT exist anywhere.

  22. #22 by Tom Paine on February 15, 2010 - 1:52 pm

    “Whatever is good and perfect comes to us from God above, who created all heaven’s lights. Unlike them, He never changes or casts shifting shadows” (James 1:17).

    So, if god never changes, neither can his law, right? So, how do you explain that the New Testament kinda replaces the Old?

    Well, you can’t explain it, because the bible is BS–used just to control you. Scholars (lol) agree that it was written 150 years after Jesus supposedly was on the earth. It was revised by Kings and councils–of course if Bush, or Obama had it revised, I’m sure it would still carry the original “intended” message–LOL

    Maybe take some time and start out by reading “Age of Reason” by Thomas Paine—Stop allowing yourself to be controlled by the same lovely people who have always controlled—”By deception……..”

    J

  23. #23 by jollyroger on February 15, 2010 - 2:32 pm

    Gimme dat good ole time religin.
    After 2000 or so years of religious hypocracy and various crimminal acts including torture( supported by 56% of xtian Americans) War(also supported by the same) and various nefarious(oops)
    scams, twisted ideologies such as support for zionist israhel and the armmegedon/rapture crapture it all makes sense now:
    Religion is B.S.
    In all this time nothing has changed except for the methods by which the Falwells, Robertsons, Hagees, Palins et all continue to scam ignorant people out of their savings and into debt thus fulfilling their own dreams of true salvation. Worship at the alter of moloch!
    The bible written by the great scam artists in the past and deified at the first great religious convention could hardly have imagined the impact they would have for the next 2000 plus years nor the immense amount of wealth, savage, sadistic cruelty and perpetuation of ignorance that has been the bain of humanity for all those times.
    In the future, when the so called religigions of the world have faded into the background, with the exceptions of maybe Buddism, then mankind can begin to realize its true potential: A worl without wars, deception, savage cruelty, without the same old scam artists out to make a buck in the name of god or whatever.
    Xtianity is neither religion of peace nor enlightenment. It is a brutal, hypacritical, and selfserving belief system. No different than Islam or judaism. They all stink.

  24. #24 by Jesus on February 15, 2010 - 3:19 pm

    The Word is confusing because you think in the wrong direction. You are always looking from the ground up to explain what is going on. However, if you thought critically about the problems of creating and managing a Universe, and why it happened, it would make more sense.

    Imagine this problem: I am God. I have to create a Universe that is so vast and complex that scientists can explain away my very existence. But, those who believe in me can see my hand in everything. Not easy. And, that law thing. Of course, you don’t get it. None of you understands that ANYTHING that puts the flesh above the spirit is an act of rebellion.

    But, don’t worry. It’s all going to be over soon. The faithful will be rewarded for taking all the abuse they have endured. And, you who have mocked me. Boy, are you going to feel stupid…

  25. #25 by Cheryl on February 15, 2010 - 3:21 pm

    Where is your intellectual honesty? What do you mean she said this “recently”? Is a year ago recent? Five years ago? 10?

    Dr. Laura has not been an orthodox Jew for at least 5 years. She is very compassionate to the homosexual community. I have listened to her off and on for over 10 years. Before and after her religious conversion.

    In the last two months I’ve listened to her about 5 times. I heard at least 3 separate calls from homosexuals who were having relationship problems with their partner. Dr. Laura dispensed the same helpful advise to them and used the same tone and manner that she does with her heretosexual callers.

    She treats everyone the same. You are a deceiver.

  26. #26 by imp on February 15, 2010 - 3:22 pm

    I’m still waiting for someone to find Noah’s Ark and the underwater remains of all those chariots from when Moses closed the Red Sea on Pharoah’s Army. And the bones of all the Palestinian giants like Goliath. And one surviving piece of the Temple of Solomon. And any historical evidence that David and Solomon existed, or that the Israelites were monotheists before the Babylonian Captivity.

    Until I get some objective evidence that the Old Testament is true, I’m not stoning anyone to death.

  27. #27 by Jimmy on February 15, 2010 - 3:24 pm

    I just love the internet, brings out all the multitudes of philosophy majors, with grandpa pants and pagers. Too bad they are only outspoken in comments sections online. Put up or shut up, you are all fools.

  28. #28 by Lee on February 15, 2010 - 3:26 pm

    A “Church” in nature is nothing more than a Business to collect monies to be able to control
    people with false promises. People will grasp at almost any promise that gives them a meaning
    for being a person to secure a place that is false and a myth. makes a good story for children
    to read.
    If “God” existed before the creation of Billions and Billions of planets and stars that was supposedly created by him then ask yourself ( where did he exist if nothing existed )
    Scientist has looked into outer space with Hubble back to 176 Million light years ago and have captured photo’s of planets and stars that just now are being formed, where was God then ? the same as today, did not exist.

  29. #29 by Dan Kreppel on February 15, 2010 - 3:39 pm

    Treat others as you would want to be treated. He/she who us without sin shall cast the first stone. Jesus said something like I am the light, the truth and the way the only way to God is through me. Pray for your enemies. He Is peace and love. old testsment is history new testament is Jesus.

  30. #30 by Jesus on February 15, 2010 - 3:42 pm

    @Lee,

    You are a 3-dimensional thinker in a universe with 11 dimensions.

    You want to talk science? Be careful.

  31. #31 by LeMage on February 15, 2010 - 3:48 pm

    This is in response to Jeannon Krals who stated above “…some individual Jews did kill Christ.”

    How does that statement square with John 10:17, wherein Yeshua states, “The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life–only to take it up again. NO ONE TAKES IT FROM ME, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again.” (Emphasis added)?

  32. #32 by No King but Jesus (not even Moses) on February 15, 2010 - 3:52 pm

    For Moses said, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you. Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from among his people.’-Acts3.22(until every jot and tittle)

    What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise.-Gal3.17(every jot and tittle)

    What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator.-19(by angels?)

    For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son-Heb1.5

    Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize-Col2.18

    And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.-Col2.15

    Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes-Rom10.4

    But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises.-Heb8.6

    “Behold, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.-Is65.17

    you will be called by a new name-Is62.2,65.15,Rev3.12

    and they were first called Christians in Antioch-Acts

    You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?-Gal3

    There will be one King over all of them and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms-Eze37.22

    The LORD will be King over the whole earth. On that day there will be one LORD, and his Name the only Name.-Zech14.9

  33. #33 by Amerikagulag on February 15, 2010 - 3:52 pm

    Adam and Eve are not history. It is allegory. Jesus, it is said, came to atone for the sin of Adam. You can’t have a physical atonement for an allegorical sin. The bible fails the test of truth at every turn.

    For a thorough examination of the literary cacophony that has come to be known as ‘the bible’, read, “Is It god’s Word” by Joseph Wheless.

    http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/joseph_wheless/is_it_gods_word/

    You can download the entire book, print it out and share it with your enlightened friends. Excellent educational reading and great fun for the whole family!

    “And he said to his apostles, “take this all of you and pay for it, I left my wallet in my other suit”

  34. #34 by Bruno on February 15, 2010 - 3:56 pm

    The responses to the original post are more interesting than the initial premise. I can associate with all of them to some degree. The problem is this foremost: the Bible needs an authoritative interpretation just as a diagnosis of a serious illness should not be left to expertise of a plumber not to mention cars to baby sitters or airplanes to philosophers. It is the Protestants who have created the 40,000+ versions of the meaning of the Bible. The old covenant is over with but not all the laws in it. To decide which are and which are not should be left to the real experts. But for that to happen we ought to first have one type of Christianity and not several main versions and thousands of smaller versions. So tell the big boys to get their act together and work it out and stop talking wishywashy. The troops out there are tired of indiscriminate babble.

  35. #35 by Ron Martin on February 15, 2010 - 4:21 pm

    I still thhink George Carlin summed it up appropriately. “…if there is a god, may he strike me dead where I stand!….” Wow! Nothing happened!

  36. #36 by KMD on February 15, 2010 - 4:42 pm

    “Take this, Dr Laura.”

    Here are a few examples of the women oppression in the New Testament:

    “…the women should keep silence in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says.” 1 Corinthians 4:34

    “Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent.” 1 Timothy 2:11-12

    “Likewise you wives, be submissive to your husbands.” 1 Peter 3:1

    And from the Koran:

    “Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other… Good women are obedient. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them, forsake them in beds apart; and beat them” Q 4:34

    Throughout the history of Christ’s Church, numerous fathers, saints and so on have made the most obnoxious and hateful remarks about women, including that they are the “devil’s gateway,” a slander so vicious that it led to hundreds of thousands of women to be systematically murdered by the Catholic Church. This calumny and bigotry continue to this day, and women are regularly attacked merely for questioning Church dogma and doctrine, such as the historicity of patently mythical biblical characters.

  37. #37 by Lynn D. on February 15, 2010 - 4:44 pm

    To the one who said “lesbians” are not mentioned in the Bible: Romans 1:26-27 -”Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their WOMEN exchanged natural relations for UNNATURAL ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.”

    To Laura Schlessinger: Galatians 5:4 “You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.”

    To the one said it’s not about “words” but about “love in your heart” and slandered my God by referring to Him in the feminine: “In the beginning was the WORD. The WORD was with God and the WORD WAS GOD. As far as “love” goes…only those who have a “love of the truth” will be saved. 1 Thesselonians 2:11 Not those who slander Him, ridicule Him and twist His WORD to their own destruction.

    And finally, to the author of this disgusting and *blasphemous* article: 1 Corinthians 1:18 “For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. Read the New Testament and you might learn how it REPLACED the Old Testament rituals, fleshly WAR (ie Aphganistan, Iraq, etc.) and animal sacrifices. As far as your comment about the law on not having sex with a woman being on her period….that would only apply to MARRIED COUPLES, not fornicators who should not be fornicating!

  38. #38 by JON on February 15, 2010 - 4:46 pm

    I want to help all of the people that get confused about the Bible. The old testament told of how the world was created. It talks of a jealous God which seemed very violent. Some people speculate this was a false God. The old testament also claims there will be a savior. This is where the new testament comes in. Jesus is the savior of the new testament and preaches the good news of the kingdom of heaven. Jesus tells the masses he is the new convenant. This means forget everything that you learned from the old testament. Jesus is all you need to know people.
    Treat your neighbors as yourself. pretty simple. so all you people that talk about killing, war, and everything else are clearly digging to deep. LOVE YOUR NEIGHBORS AS YOU LOVE YOURSELVES. pray for wisdom, knowledge, and understanding….God will give it freely

  39. #39 by Lynn D. on February 15, 2010 - 4:56 pm

    To Ron Martin regarding his George Carlin quote: Ecclesiastes 8:11 “Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.” I’m sure the late Carlin knows this is true at this point!

    To Bruno who said “The Bible needs an authoritative interpretation…..It is the Protestants who have created the 40,000+ versions of the meaning of the Bible.” You are correct! The authoritative interpreter of the Bible is the HOLY SPIRIT who indwells those who are truly born again. “Protestants” and their Mother Harlot the Catholics are not part of Christ’s true body of believers who are the few “called out ones” or Ekklesia, a scattered Spiritual body of believers who won’t come together until He calls us to be with Him just prior to God’s wrath being poured out on this wicked and blasphemous world. Man can only explain things in the context of the material and physical world he lives in. God is Spirit and is not subject to time, space and matter as is the physical world God has made for us. The reason man has a hard time understanding how God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are One is that man has nothing in his material world to compare it with. He is trying to describe something he has nothing to compare it with. Nothing in the material world of man can describe the Biblical truth that God is One God and three persons. The only verse in the Bible that uses something material to describe the Spirit is found in John 3:8. Jesus said, “The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.” Jesus was saying although you cannot see the Spirit, you know He is there because you see the effect of His presence has on the things He touches. We know that the Trinity is true, because we have it revealed in the Bible. God states that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are One God. It is a revealed truth from God that is a mystery to the world, yet fully accepted by the born again child of God, who believes and trusts God.
    John 14:17 “And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— the Spirit of truth (Holy Spirit). The world cannot accept Him, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. But you know Him, for He lives with you and will be in you.” (HE, NOT “SHE!)

  40. #40 by Lynn D. on February 15, 2010 - 5:04 pm

    No, Jon, you don’t “forget everything in the Old Testement”. Jesus was also the saviour of the Old Testament saints. Read the Book of Hebrews where God says that He wasn’t pleased with the Israelites in the wilderness who “also partook of Christ”. 1 John 1:1 says IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD…….Jesus is THE WORD OF GOD. He was there in the BEGINNING (Genesis). He had to come in the flesh in the NT to put an end to Old Testament LAW. HOWEVER, 1 Peter 3:2 says “HEED THE PROPHETS THAT CAME BEFORE.” Meaning OLD TESTAMENT PROPHETS. They are FULL of information and prophecies relavent to TODAY! Also, Jesus Himself said: “Seek treasures both OLD and NEW” (meaning Old and New Testament). In the time He walked the earth, along with His diciples and the Apostles, the New Testament DID NOT EXIST. They studied the Psalms and the Prophets. Be careful what you tell people.

  41. #41 by Pierre on February 15, 2010 - 5:07 pm

    I accept all religions for what they are…they are all beliefs. However they are not universal truths. Universal truths are undeniable by their existence. There are very few universal truths…light energy, electromagnetic energy are two truths that exist throughout our known universe. Most other so called truths are relative to our individual perception. In the end, it likely “matters not”.

  42. #42 by daedalus on February 15, 2010 - 5:15 pm

    This is a funny article. It, or a variation of it, has been circulating for years.
    A thing I’ve often wondered about, though, is why, oh why, are Pro-zion, Jew Stooge
    sites so absolutely afraid? Do they really believe the midget Begin who squeaked
    ‘We are categorically above all other species’? Sure, Begin could murder and slice
    little children and women. … and men when held by half-dozen other brave-not zi-stooges.

    But. come on Zio’s chuckle at yourself!

    The whole wolrd does.

  43. #43 by Lynn D. on February 15, 2010 - 5:18 pm

    Pierre: As I stated above, man can only explain things in the context of the material and physical world he lives in. God is Spirit and is not subject to time, space and matter as is the physical world God has made for us. How much does your eternal soul matter to you? Does it “matter not” where you will spend eternity? Think about it like this: If I’m correct in my belief of the Bible and it is in fact the Word of God (your Creator), then YOU have everything to lose! But, if you are correct and it “matters not” then I have NOTHING to lose, either way. I’d say my bet is 100% safe, your’s has at least a 50/50 chance of failure.

  44. #44 by Yaaqob on February 15, 2010 - 5:40 pm

    I find it interesting that so many commentators on the scriptures lack any real understanding of their meanings. Instead of quoting KJV based fraudulent adaptations that were designed to make the scriptures appear contradictory, understanding should be obtained by reading the most pure translation of the Hebrew scriptures in existance today…THE BOOK OF YAHWEH – The Holy Scriptures. It is available from The House of Yahweh at http://www.yahweh.com for anyone interested.

  45. #45 by Lynk Brockner on February 15, 2010 - 5:54 pm

    The fourth commandment reads as follows from the King James Version, Exodus 20:8-9
    “Remember the Sabbath day, and keep it holy. For six days you shall labor and do all your work. But the seventh day is a Sabbath to the lord your God; you shall not do any work – you, your son or your daughter, your male or female slave, your livestock, or the alien resident in your towns.”

    The Bible demands the death penalty for anyone that breaks the fourth commandment.

    Exodus 31:15
    “For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death.”

    Exodus 35:2
    “For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death.”

    This sounds simple enough, God commands that no one work on the Sabbath and that those who do must be put to death. But let’s examine the reality in America. Wal-mart, Target, McDonalds, Kinko’s, Waffle House, gas stations, convenience stores and almost all other retail outlets are open on Sunday our sabbath. (except for Hobby Lobby and Chic-fil-A).

    Where are all the people upholding this part of the Bible?

  46. #46 by Mike S on February 15, 2010 - 6:05 pm

    Yes, by all means, let Jews tell you how to behave, they are such exemplary models of humanity themselves.

  47. #47 by Jason on February 15, 2010 - 6:08 pm

    I think most of these people, the Christians at least, are not getting the point. You cannot say that being gay is wrong based on what the Bible says. If you take one rule from the Old Testament, but not the others, you are not a “true Bible believer”. You shouldn’t necessarily get to pick and choose and still say that you adhere to the entire Bible. You must either accept that the Bible is not useful today, and another system of ethics must be used, or you must accept all the different things that applied to 2000+ years ago. Why would you say that all the other rules are null and void, but the one about gay people still stands? That’s ridiculous. You’re basing your ethics on a combination of what YOU deem acceptable within the Bible, and your own personal preferences.

    This is why it is hypocritical. Please understand.

  48. #48 by Jason on February 15, 2010 - 6:24 pm

    Oh, and Lynn D., please realize that your bet is not “100%” safe. It is “100%” ridiculous. No bet is 100% safe or it is not a bet.

    A. You are not certain that God exists, which makes it a bet. You have a strong feeling connected to personal experiences and other…fragile bits of rationality that make you think that God exists.

    B. You stymie your own life by restricting yourself to what you can do based on what a “theoretical” being (how do you quantify, qualify, or define “spirit”? Are you a qualified specialist in that area and if so, where are your research papers?) deems is positive for you.

    C. Have you ever heard the phrase,”I would rather rule in Hell, than serve in Heaven”? Basically, it doesn’t mean that person is evil, it just means we don’t prefer to be slaves to any being, as we are free-thinking individuals.

    D. If man can only explain things in physical and material ways, and please do refer back to “B” when you think about this, how can YOU, or ANYONE in humanity say that they can “know” God? Does that make any sense? Or will you just say something like, “Through the Bible and requesting God’s infinite wisdom, he will share his knowledge and love with us and this is how we will know him.” Have you heard the phrase, “If you talk to yourself, you’re quirky. If you talk back, you’re crazy.” Same logic sorta applies here, though instead of “crazy” I would say “delusional”. Why doesn’t God’s booming voice deliver us messages from the clouds, and instead it goes straight to your head?!

    E. You have everything to lose. Everything. Unfortunately, before I de-converted I was filled with the constant guilt and unhappiness of never being good enough to get into Heaven if Jesus hadn’t died for my sins. As somewhat of a perfectionist, I lived the best life I could, and STILL the religion tells you you aren’t really good enough to lick God’s big toe, because you’re a sinner no matter what. You’re surrounded by the fact that you do bad things, even though you spend your whole life trying to do what’s right. After I dropped all that crazy crap, seeing stuff and believing in stuff and yet questioning everything the Bible says (the world was not created in 7 days, literal or metaphorical), all the guilt fell away with it.

    You might feel better if, instead of betting that you might find out God is real (which is the same 50/50 chance as anyone else) you took a good look at reality and applied God to it, instead of taking a look at God and trying to apply reality to it. Then, you will see “the truth”, and it will set you free.

    Cheers!

  49. #49 by Amerikagulag on February 15, 2010 - 6:26 pm

    Lynn, I think you hit the nail on the head, but you could have gone a bit further.

    Allow me: [God is Spirit and is not subject to time, space and matter as is the physical world God has made for us.] God is also not subject to mans weaknesses of Hate, Anger, Jealousy, Envy, Wrath, Spitefulness, Revenge, etc. God doesn’t “sit” on a throne, for that would imply gravity. God is Spirit. Spirit is energy. Soul is energy and therefore not in danger of ‘eternal flames’ in that little place of eternal torment. So that place of eternal torment is just so much rubbish.

    Sri Aurobindo summarized the notion of God as best as can be for a human mind; “Beyond and pervading the universe, inhabiting also our own being.” God is FREE! No doctrines required.

    You know you’ve created god in your own image when you God hates the same people you do.
    “When toe power of Love overcomes the love or power, the world will know peace. “

  50. #50 by Shallel on February 15, 2010 - 6:27 pm

    Dr. Laura’s “god” is the devil. Just ask Christ. Yahweh=Jehovah=Allah=Satan.

    “Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do . He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.”

    Christ to His Disciples, John 8:44

    Thanks for this fine article!

  51. #51 by Thomas Paine on February 15, 2010 - 7:01 pm

    OK, let me get this right….god is vengeful, jealous, angry, all the qualities/behavior that Jesus preached against.
    Why do you follow Jesus, and not God (well, his actions anyway) –you know, the one who sliced up women and children (in the OT) and I suppose continues to do so in Palestine (through surrogates)? Aren’t god and jesus the same (trinity?)

    Seeing any similarities here between the chosen and god?

    Also, in reply to one of the comments—yeah, let’s rely on the “experts”–like the wall street bankers, politicians, think tanks, TV talking heads–look where relying on “experts” throughout history has gotten us—

    Why not do the research yourself instead of having someone else do it for you…nah, that would take some actual effort……

    I find it funny too that people are quoting the bible as their only source of “gods” word when the debate is that the whole book is BS—absent the bible, what ya’ got?

    J

  52. #52 by Hans on February 15, 2010 - 7:02 pm

    A little knowledge is worse then no knowledge at all – as you prove.

    All scripture is of advantage to those who seek the truth, therefore you must see it all in the right and correct context. The law of the old Testament was given not just to regulate and organize society, but also as a reminder that no man is perfect and can fullfill teh law.

    Otherwise the sacrifice of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ would not have been necessary!

    Jesus fulfilled the old Testament law and we are perfected in him, as he has taken our sins away.

    Instead of quoting out-of-date laws, you should be happy about the sacrifice Jesus Christ has made and in doing so spared you from fulfilling a law, that you and me as imperfect beings can not live up to.
    That is, only if you accept his offer of redemption, instead of picking verses in order to drag the scriptures through the mud.

  53. #53 by Mark on February 15, 2010 - 7:27 pm

    The bible is simply the history of the Jewish people, period. Taking the bible literally is a sure sign of ignorance. Andto hell with the church and the men that lead them! @hat do you thin Jesus was preaching against? King James bible is a corrupt piece of garbage with nearly 14,000 discrepancies when compared with the oldest living bible… Grow up and seek some knowlege it will not be handed to you buy some man on the alter…. you need to think and research… Not something most of the lazy west would do, as it may interfer with American Idol. Jesus is A pat not THE path.

  54. #54 by Jesus Christ on February 15, 2010 - 7:35 pm

    I’ve been continuing to tell you people to look inside! But you keep showing up at church and looking into the sky… I am not there! I am in everyone, including all those people you think need saving! Leave them alone, save yourself. BTW, please learn how to pray! Why do you continue to talk to me and dad, when you should be listening? I don’t give a hell what you have to say… I wish you would just shut up and listen sometimes… Praying does not equal asking me for stuff or curing things… these things you must do!! If you would stop talking long enough to hear me, I will point you in the direction!! Also, please lose the cross around your neck!! I never want to see one of those again!! Do you wear a gun around your neck to commemorate JKK?

    Peace & Love,

    JC

  55. #55 by Jesus Christ on February 15, 2010 - 7:38 pm

    LYNN D.

    You are hedging bets on spirituality? You are disgusting.

    Cheers,

    The Lord.

  56. #56 by Doug on February 15, 2010 - 7:40 pm

    “LIMB OF A LIVING CREATURE
    against eating a limb severed from a living animal, beast, or fowl”

    This is one law I just can’t seem to adhere to. I just love my live chicken. Besides, have you ever tried to rip a limb off a bull? Guess I’ll never be a good little Noahide. Go ahead, off with my head if you must!

  57. #57 by Pierre on February 15, 2010 - 9:07 pm

    Lynn,
    You make my point well. Beliefs are neither right or wrong. They just are. Groups and individuals attempt to turn their beliefs into universal truths but they never succeed. Your relative truths aren’t truths for others. Up and down are relative truths for you at this moment but are not truths for astronauts traveling in space. Get it? Probably not. If you studied the “magic” in our sciences and the potential for “miracles” in our future potential you might begin to understand why it matters not. The old fears that all scriptures conjure up are no longer helpful. They distort reality and hold us back. Consider your bet…it’s based on fear and superstition and completely without hope. Rather sad! All religions including atheism are beliefs. I accept them all as beliefs but not truths; and hope others will see this as the way to peaceful co-existence.

  58. #58 by Hans on February 15, 2010 - 10:19 pm

    Oh Mark, you are such a clown, you are not expecting to be taken serious?

    For the benefit of those still able to think for themselfes:

    Mark:”The Bible is the History of the Jewish people” Wrong.

    Correct: There were no Jews in Babylon, at the time Abraham was called by God. The word Jew appears much later. In the New Testament, it is clearly said, there is no Jew, Greek, Roman any more, but only believers, Christianity is the Opposite of physical Descendance. Why do you think Jews reject the Bible?

    As for prophecies, do you not have enough cells in your head to grasp that they refer to the future, not to the past or History?

    Name 20 of your discrepancies and we will see if you have studied.

    Church? I don’t belong to any, again you don’t know what you are talking about.

    Pastor, handing “down” – again you fail. Jesus Christ, Son of God, said: “But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all students.”

    “American Idol” – the Bible commands not to worship idols, so i detest such things.

    You are clueless and recommend others to study and to grow up! Why don’t you do it yourself?

    note from me, MG–”A rose by any other name”–Fine, drown yourself in technicalities–Jews, Hebrews, Israelites, Khazars, Edomites, etc, etc, etc, they all followed “The Law”, meaning the Old Testament, Torah, Tanach, again, whatever you want to call it.

    As far as the rest of it, I am having a hard time following your train of thought, so I’m afraid I really can’t comment.

  59. #59 by Me on February 15, 2010 - 10:53 pm

    Apparently no one reads the Bible because if they did, they would eventually read in one of Pauls letters he says that there are many gods. Sometime ago the people (men) who translated the Bible (I wonder from which language) were so convinced that when they translated Him or Father the Bible in it’s original format also included Her and Mother. There is a passage in Hebrews that reads ‘today I gave birth to you’…I ask you can a man give birth??? There are so many other references but one has to really read and think instead of listening to priests and ministers who have no idea. There are also different names which are different individuals, for instance, Lord, God, Lord God, Satan (like it nor not Satan is a GOD), these different names designate different individuals.

  60. #60 by blunt -speak on February 15, 2010 - 11:14 pm

    The only reason any of you believe in any of this deity stuff, is because a HUMAN BEING gave you this information, probably at a young age, and you CHOSE to take it to heart. Make no mistake, it was choice made in ignorance.

  61. #61 by Mottdog on February 15, 2010 - 11:19 pm

    Plagiarizer from The Problem of the Soul: Two Visions of Mind and How to Reconcile Them by Owen Flanagan

  62. #62 by YWHW on February 15, 2010 - 11:24 pm

    Hey Abraham, kill your son for me, eh? You know, to prove you love Me better than the other gods.

    KIDDING! I kid Abraham, hee hee, Here’s a goat now get otta here, you knucklehead.

  63. #63 by zerubbabel on February 15, 2010 - 11:37 pm

    The apostate “New Testament” christians are running away from God’s Law and straight into the arms of Satan and his eartly antichrist children. The lawless “New Testament” christians worship the men of sin and their chamber of isra(HELL) in the sands of Arabia. When they wake up in hell, the “New Testament” christians are going to hate their fat, anti-christ loving, demon posessed televangelist preachers that tricked them into eternal damnation.

  64. #64 by robertvnik on February 16, 2010 - 12:09 am

    Jesus!!!!!! is that really you?

  65. #65 by sane person on February 16, 2010 - 12:28 am

    Scholars generally agree that three different authors wrote the bible. Other than the fact that these writings are OLD, those who believe in the bible have no proof that God was dictating to the people that wrote those ancient texts. They may have been just as psychotic as tens of others who claim that God talks to them today. You people need to come to grips with the fact that the bible was simply the efforts of some people to explain a force that is so far beyond comprehension that there is no way to put down in words what it (or he/she) is. The bible is just man’s attempt to limit God and to define him as some petty little man-in-the-sky who gives a crap about what food we eat or whether we wear clothing or whatever other trifling nonsense that those with tiny minds seem to to think that an incomprehensible force occupies its time with. God didn’t write down all these stupid rules for us; they were written by those who would seek to hold their own power over our heads as the “ones who know what God wants.” What Poppycock! The human race will have to grow far beyond its feeble notion of what religion is supposed to be before it will even come close to understanding what God intended for us, if that is even possible.

  66. #66 by JJ on February 16, 2010 - 2:49 am

    Amerikagulag,

    You are so right!! I have a book called “The Christ Conspiracy,the Greatest Story Ever Sold”
    And “The Book Your Church Doesnt Want You To Read” If you all would read a Hebrew Bible it states in Genesis In the Beginning,Elohim created the Heavens and the Earths. Elohim is plural for Gods! Scientist have also found out that some of our DNA isnt all Hu-man either!! So,what were we before we became Hu-man?? And those of you talking about Laws this and Laws that,I think there is a verse that states “I Change Not”!!

  67. #67 by Pete on February 16, 2010 - 3:30 am

    People get up every day, flick a switch and take for granted electrons will flow through the closed circuit, heat the filament material in the light bulb and photons will fill their field of vision and light their way. The simple act of turning on a light is filled with awesome miracles and phenomenon, yet woefully under appreciated..that is until a drunk plows into a power pole and blocks of people are cut off.

    So is it too with the Holy Spirit and the Word of God. When all is well, many of us go about earning our living and pursuing pleasures with nary a thought about God. Some of us actually find joy in behaviors God explains are dishonorable. So a viable question could be- “Does experiencing happiness engaging in sin have consequences to a pagan likewise a believer?” Let’s take a moment and read a few lines together.

    1 Corinthians- 9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

    12 “Everything is permissible for me”—but not everything is beneficial. “Everything is permissible for me”—but I will not be mastered by anything. 13 “Food for the stomach and the stomach for food”—but God will destroy them both. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14 By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also. 15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! 16 Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, “The two will become one flesh.” 17 But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit.

    18 Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. 19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.

    Ok, straightforward. Now merge with John 3:16- 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    So what is confusing? Rebels will say it’s all social controller gobblyguck designed to oppress us? The fact is, Scripture is super clear that we humans have total free will. You want to cheat on your wife or bang your same sex neighbor?..HAVE AT IT! You want to reject that Jesus loves all and wants no soul to be destroyed in the “Lake of Fire”..I’m not mad at you. However, truthfully, I don’t understand why anyone would want to sabotage forever basking in Glow of the Love of God, especially considering the “rules” are so damn easy to abide by.

    Anyone familiar with the opiate high certainly has a better grasp of what Heaven may well “feel” like. Likewise, anyone that has ever been lost in the wilderness, hungry, injured and afraid may have a greater appreciation of what being away from Gods’ Love feels like.

    Just like the apple pie your girlfriend made doesn’t complain why she made the pie apple, so too we humans shouldn’t complain why God made us with two arms and two legs and with a couple rules for conduct. Go with Christ and live with confident Hope for a glorious afterlife vs. the absolute darkness, nothingness and despair a pagan believes greets him at death.

    To the faggots and adulterers, pagans and swindlers I direct you to repent..to sin no more and in the privacy of your home, go to your knees and beg Christ to cleanse your account. May we all be like lamps on pedestals shining Christs’ Love for all the world to delight. 14/88

  68. #68 by stupid and stupider on February 16, 2010 - 3:50 am

    so, the Jew Christ (or was he) gets slung up on a cross, jabbed and stabbed, and then he redeems (or adeems, or something) the sins all Humanity — and then Pilate (the early Khazar appointee — before Khazars were taken over by Jews, their tribe was pronounced with a soft-K, i.e. a “c” as in Caesars) offers Humanity a deal.

    We have to remember now, that this was in the middle of a banking collapse. The crowds were about to become furious with the money changers.

    So Pilate, agentura of the Caesarian (soft-c) moneychangers, offers Humanity a sweetheart deal: You may take down one person from a cross on the mountain of skulls. So, Humanity, what does it do? It sacrifices Jesus to save Barnabas. And, who was he … he was something like the Rothschild of his time. So, Jesus gets murdered (sacrificed for redemption of moneychangers – his media stunt tyrade notwithstanding), and who gets saved … Rothschild of his time.

    Jesus spends three days vacation in Hell, and Barnabas the thief (banker’s agent) gets off the hook.

    Who wrote this story anyway?

    As for the misogyny (and misandry and misanthropy) of circumcision, and a glimpse into the connection between circumcision (violent, brutal, systemic, forced mutilations of toddlers, and development of alternate personalities in the toddlers which are more easily programmed by religious artists slinging bullshit free Barnabas and preserve the rights of Jew bankers to run paedophile rings, etc., …) and maintain a culture preoccupied by sex and violence, see … http://www.sexuallymutilatedchild.org/fleiss.htm. Long before there was MKUltra and Voodoo, circumcision-mutilation was used to create Alternate Personalities in toddlers which could be more easily programmed by Jewish Talmudic nutjobs, slinging Babylonian-MKUltra Voodoo.

  69. #69 by Deborah Collins on February 16, 2010 - 4:06 am

    The Bible is God’s word. It is a supernatural message with 100% accuracy in its prophecy. It even predicts the outcome of what is actually going on in the world right now: a fascist world order and world religion that will seek to enslave all. (Revelation). What most people don’t understand, although it’s plain in its pages, is that God’s word must be rightly divided (2 Tim. 2:15 KJV) between God’s law program with Israel (that he has temporarily shelved) and God’s present-day program with the Body of Christ saved by God’s grace for simply taking him at his word that Jesus Christ has paid for the world’s sins (including homosexual behavior) 2 Corinthians 5:19). Until God chooses to end this age of grace during which eternal salvation is a free gift (Rom. 6:23) for believing that Christ died, was buried, and rose again (1 Cor. 15:1-4), God is not dealing with the “sin issue” at all, but with the “Son issue.” Take advantage of God’s grace and trust Jesus Christ or be separated from God for all eternity in the Lake of Fire.

    Paul’s epistles Romans thru Philemon contain the grace message for today; all the rest of the Bible is about Israel’s law message and not for anyone living today!

  70. #70 by no name on February 16, 2010 - 4:11 am

    No Name, Jesus said ” I’ll come like a theif in the night.” Man how many people are going to be caught off guard. We are living in the last days, filled with docturines of demons. The devil is a wolf in sheeps clothing. He walks about the earth as a lion seeking who he can devour.People get so caught up in their own ideas of right and wrong, for this reason God will give them up to believe a lie. This lie can be a whole host of deviant behaviors. What’s so sad is that people would lay their lives on the line for satan’s faulsehoods. When the time comes, death,nuclear war, etc.. or the second comming. Then and only then will the skeptics have the true answers thet seek. Paul said ” for me to die is gain, but to live is Christ.”

  71. #71 by Amerikagulag on February 16, 2010 - 7:39 am

    JJ,

    “The Christ Conspiracy” Good book. Read it twice. Acharya S has some powerful books out there. But she takes from older investigators like Joseph Wheless. Alvin Kuhn and Gerald Massey have done some fine research as well.

    Regarding the DNA thing, if we look at the ORIGINAL book of Creation, (The Sumerian tablets) we find that the Anunaki (elohim) came from a distant planet in the Paledies, (the angels/gods came down from heaven) manipulated the DNA of the existing primates and created a race of slaves, who eventually revolted. That race of ‘rebels’ is MAN. The ‘missing link’ is an alien.

    For those still mindlessly meandering and maundering through that book called the bible, consider two things.

    1. Archaeology does NOT support the claims in the bible.
    The Creation story is a MYTH, not history. Lilith was a much more intelligent wife for Adam than Eve. There was NO EXODUS. No Moses (if there was, there were 5 of them) no wandering in the desert, no parting the Red Sea, no walls around Jericho, no great kingdom of David, Judah was the more powerful of the two. And the Diaspora is HIGHLY questionable. So what’s left but a bunch of man-made LAWS which border on the ridiculous?
    “The Bible Unearthed” by Silberman and Finkelstein dispels all the rubbish and sets the record straight. Believers still dismiss them, but theirs is mainstream archaeological fact. Beliefs don’t change fact.

    2. There was no virgin birth, no three wise-guys, no raising of Lazarus, and no resurrection. The only thing original to the christian religion is its alleged founder. The Jesus story is a re-write of older source material from the surrounding cultures. The hebrews created a book chock full of lies both Old and New testament – but then claim the GOD WROTE IT.
    And further, “IF” the shroud of Turin is the death shroud of Jesus, it demonstrates that he did not die but survived the crucifixion because there are over 23 wounds on the body that CONTINUED TO BLEED AFTER THE BODY WAS WRAPPED. Corpses don’t bleed.

    Both Old and New Testament were written by Jews; people who apparently made it their profession to lie, cheat, swindle and make shit up, in order to gain power through religion. It worked, but the truth is coming out now and people are falling away from this Judaic nonsense like bees out of a gasoline-soaked hive.

    Preach if you like, but don’t assume you have any factual foundation to stand on. It’s only wishful thinking you espouse. Meat for men, milk for babes.

    God is not a member of any religion.

  72. #72 by son worshipper on February 16, 2010 - 12:05 pm

    religion = a system of control, to protect the status quo, enrich the powerfull, and fleece the masses. needs priests, popes, churches, robes, ceremonies, etc.
    assumes you need a middleman in between you and god. assumes you want to know about god, instead of KNOWING god. encourages you to believe without questioning. tends to keep you stupid. (not recomended)

    spirituality = looking WITHIN YOURSELF for god. assumes you want to KNOW GOD, for yourself, instead of just knowing ABOUT god. often uses meditation, chanting, fasting, or magic mushrooms / peyoye cactus. encourages you to think, to question, to investigate and to learn. tends to make you smarter. (highly recomended)

    jesus = a “new, improved”, version of the much older mythology of horus, krishna, mithra, etc. ultimately tracing back to astro- theism, or worship of the sun, moon, and the five visible planets.

  73. #73 by Sam on February 16, 2010 - 2:15 pm

    The problem I see with these forums likes this is that God expects each of us to be found following our local Pastor’s teaching and discipleship. All of the wrangling over doctrine and abominations will cease when we get our own lives plugged into our local church and find a way to care for the widow, the orphan, those in prison, the needy and the downtrodden.

    Arguing over the color of the carpet or whether to have fast songs or slow songs is just proof that members are there for the wrong reason or at least have forgotten.

    Ephesians 4;11-17 will solve most of these questions. If you cannot answer whom your Pastor is, whom your Prophet is, whom your Apostle is, whom your teachers are whom the evangelist is then you will not get the benefit of verses 12-17

    Jesus is Lord and the enemy is a loser!
    Keep the faith that is what HE will be looking for when HE returns!
    Sam

  74. #74 by hlp54 on February 16, 2010 - 2:21 pm

    All the “holy books” were written by men who were trying to understand their world as it was. Also to keep the people controlled. Written by men to keep women as beneath men. No one ever talked to or heard from god except in their own minds. All the “believers” were taught, mostly as young children what to believe. Why are all religions more concerned with what happens to them after death than worrying about living a good life while here. It may be all you have. The religions cause more problems than they solve. Protestants/Catholics, Christians/Muslims, etc. The Inquisition tortured and killed thousands for non-belief (after torture and naming others then killed them anyway). The Christians who burned alive old women and other for being “witches.” The fundamental of both christianity and muslims who want to kill or threaten with “hell” all “non-believers”. And now the christians want to put their religious beliefs in to our government and make everyone live according to their beliefs. That was why this country was founded on separation of church and state. I for one do not want my life ruled by a book written thousands of years ago by men for their power to control.

  75. #75 by Amerikagulag on February 16, 2010 - 4:23 pm

    [Scholars generally agree that three different authors wrote the bible.]

    Not true. The OT had many authors. It is unlikelt the “Book of the LAw” was written by anyone named Moses. More likely it was penned by King Josiah in about 750 BC when he miraculously “found” the “Book of the Law” while renovating a temple. Prior to that time paganism was the religion with phallic worship and sun worship all the rage.

    The NT had at least 3 authors, none of which was names Matthew, Luke or John. I believe Mark is the oldest known text. Paul (Saul) was not even a disciple yet seems to be quoted more often than the others because he managed to Helenize christianity. It is unlikely the “letters of Paul” were even written by him. And you’re not including the extant texts floating around during the first century. There were about 100 ‘gospels’ until Constantine cut them down to 4 and forced the current doctrine down the throats of the Gnostics in the Council of Nicea.

  76. #76 by sane person on February 16, 2010 - 10:09 pm

    Amerikagulag:

    I like your posts. You have pretty well pointed out the fallacies inherent in religion. My source for stating that scholars believe that three unknown authors are credited with writing the Old Testament (the majority of it, not all of it) comes directly from the textbook used by the University of Kansas for their Western Civilization Course. I had to take the course when I went back after 28 years and finished my degree in 2006.

    I do not intend to post any further as I have found it pointless to argue with the “true believers” such as Deborah who use the circular argument that “The bible is God’s word. We know this is true because it says so in the bible.” These people simply do not understand that you cannot use your conclusion to prove your premise which is then used to support your conclusion.

    The bottom line is that these poor individuals lack any critical thinking skills. They are so afraid of dying and ceasing to exist in all forms that they have to subscribe to some belief in the afterlife that requires a certain behavior on their part. If they did not subscribe to this they would have to believe that everyone gets into heaven and they would be forced to admit all the silly religious rules they adhere to were actually pointless. (After all, we have to have some way to keep the riff-raff out of heaven so we can pretend we are better than others, right?) As a result, they limit themselves to ridiculous rituals and stupid petty rules that dictate their lives. In other words they are so afraid of dying, that they are too afraid to live. Humans, as a condition of being human, have always had some innate grasp of the golden rule or “do no wrong to others.” If this were not the case, we would have wiped each other out long ago when we were living in caves and had no knowledge of the bible (Whoops! Sorry. I forgot that the intellectually challenged believe that the earth is only 6000 years old).

    The belief in Jesus as your ticket to heaven is probably the most nonsensical of beliefs in the afterlife. I personally, while not perfect by any means, have never done anything so horrendous that it merits someone being nailed to a cross to atone for my sins. This whole ideology gives these believers a free pass without requiring any sacrifice on their part except to spout “I Believe in Jesus. Jesus is going to save me.” If Jesus ever existed in any form and there is any truth to his story, then his message was in his actions; that is, to never lift a hand against anyone regardless of what they may do to you. If Jesus was the most powerful being on the planet and in the mind of the believers could have certainly slain the entire Roman army to save himself, then his sacrifice demands that all these believers follow his example in order to get into heaven. It does not mean you get into heaven by simply yelling “I believe in Jesus.” Yet these believers are always the first to go to war or kill in”self-defense”. They have no concept that Jesus was leading by example, not that he literally died so all your sins would be dismissed without any effort on their part.

    It might be worth pointing out to these believers that the majority of the intellectual giants who founded our country felt that the bible was was nonsense. Of course I am sure they all think they were smarter than Jefferson,Washington, Franklin and all those others.

    I leave it to the rest of you to continue this debate. It is pointless to argue with the intellectually impaired.

  77. #77 by Meatwad on February 16, 2010 - 10:46 pm

    There is ole Bruno of post #34 “It is the Protestants who have created the 40,000+ versions of the meaning of the Bible. The old covenant is over with but not all the laws in it.”

    No Bruno, it was what can be described as hebrewish authors that started it, read on for some facts and truth instead of your wicked intentions in faith.

    To Lynn D post #37 “only those who have a “love of the truth” will be saved. 1 Thesselonians 2:11 Not those who slander Him, ridicule Him and twist His WORD to their own destruction.”

    I suppose that leaves you out Lynn D, if you have viewed and listened the the primer within zeitgeist then you would know the abrahamic faiths (jews chrsitians of all types as well as muslums) have been lied to by plagiarized materials,,, some truth you have faith in there Lynn D.

    Followed promptly by poor Jon in post #38 February 15, 2010 at 4:46 pm
    “I want to help all of the people that get confused about the Bible. The old testament told of how the world was created. It talks of a jealous God which seemed very violent. Some people speculate this was a false God. The old testament also claims there will be a savior. This is where the new testament comes in. Jesus is the savior of the new testament and preaches the good news of the kingdom of heaven. Jesus tells the masses he is the new convenant. This means forget everything that you learned from the old testament. Jesus is all you need to know people.”

    Ok Jon, answer this for me, or any other believer in the Jesus. Who is Lucifer? Right, he was the deceiver, the “bright morning star” as they have it written. Following me so far folks, good. Now we have this jealous God, which tells you, “have no others before me” and something along the lines of “change not one word of mine”, yet we are to accept and believe, going against ALL the first books tell you, to now accept a major change in his word, and to follow his son, which just so happens to be ‘another’ that is not his Father! By the way (btw), the very use of the two words Father and Son, by the very definition of those two words, guess what, mean two different beings, one a father of the other. Now back to the question, what did your beloved other that the creator the Jesus have to say, in red letters in my copy as the second to last words attributed to the Jesus in Revelation 22:16?

    So all you Jesus fans, why are you a Jesus fan again? I get it, you know you follow the second one to the creator. Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David,

    —> and the bright and morning star <—.

    Clearly a confession of his Luciferiness, a second fiddle to the creator, a son of, a sacrifice to, not thee.

    Imagine a baseball game and the crowd goes wild for the sacrifice bunter, ignoring the guy that crossed home plate.

    Back to reality, the hebrewish authors of the abrahamic faith(s), plagiarized the stories together from myths of the surrounding cultures, combining many gods into a one, only now with hebrewish heros and prophets instead of the original story lines. Now that is some 'sticking to and not changing a single word of your god' isn't it Mr. and Mrs. christian. What foolish followers of deceit aka another fraud religion.

    Then there is the pathetic one of LynkBrockner #45 "his sounds simple enough, God commands that no one work on the Sabbath and that those who do must be put to death. But let’s examine the reality in America. Wal-mart, Target, McDonalds, Kinko’s, Waffle House, gas stations, convenience stores and almost all other retail outlets are open on Sunday our sabbath."

    Why yes, your Sabbath is on Sunday, the FIRST day of the freakin week. Morons, what can you tell them they will just go on with traditions.

    Sunday, Monday, meaning the Sun (Sol-whats in a name huh) and Moon, the first and second of the old traditional universal gods of Earth. Where did Saturnsday come into play, #7, NOT the number one day or the sixth day, but the last day of the week.

    Seems the christian faith was all about 'how much contradictory bs will they accept as a word of an infalible god'? Of course consider the plagiarized source!

  78. #78 by Jason on February 17, 2010 - 12:03 am

    I never realized how much craziness exists within the minds and hearts of the average person. You believe in this history stuff so strongly…it’s incredible. The Bible is a book, okay? It’s just a book. Evil people don’t melt when they touch it, and it doesn’t prevent anyone from lying. I agree that spirituality can be found by looking inside of oneself, and one could even define God as being something inside of people. That’s something I can rationally work with,loosely. However, all this mumbo jumbo, unproven, unscientific, unquantifiable or even blatantly utter nonsense logic is garbage. The Bible is probably the most quoted book, as filled with rubbish as it is. I’m gonna start quoting books like “Harry Potter” whenever I want to convince someone that magic is possible, and I’ll start quoting from “The Time Machine” whenever I want to prove to people that time travel has already been done. Would you believe me just because I quoted a well known book?

    All of the believers are just going to continue bouncing ideas off of each other, when in fact the Bible, just like any other book, is completely up for grabs in terms of translation and interpretation. If you really, truly, believe what the Bible says, read it again, and REALLY think about the opposing facts. Read it in the correct context, with the correct social/political/national context in mind, and try applying it directly to your life now. Then, go read ANOTHER book, and think of all the metaphysical, metaphorical ways you could interpret each and every sentence. Add in some verse numbers, “Books”, etc., and you would have the Bible. Anyone can live by any book, the Bible is not special in any way. If it were written by God, it would be glowing, evil would shriek away from it, and it would cure cancer. If it were written by someone being influenced by God, it would at least make SENSE and not be so egocentric and ethnocentric.

    You’re not paying attention people. There’s a LOT out there that we don’t know about, and there’s a lot inside all of us that we don’t know about too, but stop filling your gaps in knowledge or understanding with this fictional being who will solve all your problems!

  79. #79 by Arabia Felix on February 17, 2010 - 12:42 am

    ‘Man is the most contentious’ the Qur’an.

    This site which bears the Cross and a Crcent(which btw,is just a decorative item in Islamic architecture),yes the same site seems to be the gathering of Atheists.

    But then again,as the Qur’an says MAN IS THE MOST CONTENTIOUS.

    If the article and the discussions going on here were of a serious nature, i would have
    participated it,but it seems to me that the whole thing is mudd slinging.

    I do not prescribe to any of the teachings mentioned in the article,as a matter of fact
    some of them are shocking to me, nevertheless,those addressing the issue at hand are doing it
    just to attack the bible,not to seperate the Truth from the Lie.

    Just wondering Mark, if you allow me to wonder,,,,,,,,,,

    The Symbol the CROSS and the DECORATIVE item the CRECENT, are they not the LOGO of
    LAMBDA CHI ALPHA fraternity of which is said RON PAUL is member of?

  80. #80 by Deborah Collins on February 17, 2010 - 2:53 am

    Sane Person (see February 16, 2010 at 10:09 pm)
    misquoted me as saying, “The Bible is God’s word. We know this is true because it says so in the Bible.” What I said was, “The Bible is God’s word. It’s one hundred percent accurate in its prophecies.” No other book can make this claim. Here’s just one (quoted from reasons dot org:

    Some time before 500 B.C. the prophet Daniel proclaimed that Israel’s long-awaited Messiah would begin his public ministry 483 years after the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem (Daniel 9:25-26). He further predicted that the Messiah would be “cut off,” killed, and that this event would take place prior to a second destruction of Jerusalem. Abundant documentation shows that these prophecies were perfectly fulfilled in the life (and crucifixion) of Jesus Christ. The decree regarding the restoration of Jerusalem was issued by Persia’s King Artaxerxes to the Hebrew priest Ezra in 458 B.C., 483 years later the ministry of Jesus Christ began in Galilee. (Remember that due to calendar changes, the date for the start of Christ’s ministry is set by most historians at about 26 A.D. Also note that from 1 B.C. to 1 A.D. is just one year.) Jesus’ crucifixion occurred only a few years later, and about four decades later, in 70 A.D. came the destruction of Jerusalem by Titus.

    (Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 105.)*

    And what about the prophecy in Isaiah about King Cyrus 150 years before he was born? (Isaiah 44:28; 45:1; and 45:13). The probability for that is phenomonal. And there are many more.

    If mere mortal men wrote the books of the Bible without inspiration from their Creator, they would never have had their messiah nailed to a tree and salvation offered freely through God’s grace for simply believing that. It goes against human pride to conceive of such an idea! Real Christianity (not legalistic cults within Christendom) is unique in that salvation is offered as a free gift for believing. Israel was and will be required to obey God’s commands as proof of their belief in order to inherit their kingdom on earth. But today God is taking out from among humanity a people to populate the heavens when he finally casts Satan & Co. out of there forever.

    The Bible isn’t hard to understand; it’s just hard to believe because of human pride.

  81. #81 by Freethinker on February 17, 2010 - 7:23 am

    The old and new testaments are works of fiction. Works of fiction are not meant to be as non-fiction. If that were so, we would have to ask ourselves “What would Gandalf do?” Lord of the Rings only had one author, a better storyline, and mythical creatures. The bible et al only have the last thing.

  82. #82 by Doug on February 17, 2010 - 8:10 am

    OK, if you’re really Jesus posting on this blog, I’m going to ask you a question that only you will know. Also, since I don’t want anyone else to know, I’m, going to ask it in tongues:

    ¿Le gusta a usted aquí? ¿Cuántos Años Tienes?

  83. #83 by Meatwad on February 17, 2010 - 9:03 am

    Deborah, could you please tell us how whom ever it was arrived at that figure of a 1 in 105 probability. Those prophecies you say were foretold 150 years prior to some king, were vague enough that you would accept the first construction of any fort to be that cause.

    Seriously Deb, view the free video Zeitgeist, and you will not only know that those written words of God in the jewish version, is the same as yours, but that the entire collection is nothing but one stolen story after the next, with the heros names changed to place the tribe that stole the legends stories to become to final victor and hero(s) over all others. How difficult is that to understand. There is no way any story coming from those hebrew words can be thought of as the direct words of some God. You are only deluding yourself denying that fact girl.

    Remember that story of the good tree and bad tree. (yes, another myth-fable stolen by the hebrewish authors of the torah) The moral of it, no good can come from bad no matter how much you hope and pray that the fruit of the bad tree is good. The christian churches you are stuck in, are the rotten fruit of the plagiarized works of the hebrewish cult(s). So simple, yet the great deceived masses will fight and kill over these simple truths of those lies.

    Deborah, I have a couple questions in my last comment #77, can you answer any?

  84. #84 by Love on February 17, 2010 - 10:34 am

    Religion is similar to women arguing over who has the biggest (male-part).

    On a serious note, people need to realize the old testament was the [b]OLD[/b] affiance, affirmation, agreement, asseveration, assurance, avowal, betrothal, bond, commitment, compact, consent, contract, covenant, earnest, engagement, espousal, guarantee, insurance, marriage, oath, obligation, pact, parole, pawn, pledge, plight, profession, promissory note, sacred word, security, stipulation, swear, swearing, token, troth, undertaking, vow, warrant, warranty, word, word of honor….. Any word would do.

    The NEW testament is the NEW promise.

    Why have the old testament in the bible? It’s history! You wouldn’t want to erase history, would you?

    This is my philosophy: If someone is doing something that doesn’t affect you or people around you in a negative way, then I shouldn’t care. If my “neighbors” want to have homosexual sex, why should I care? It’s THEIR PERSONAL BUSINESS. I don’t need to go to their house, tell them it’s wrong, tell them they need help, and burn down their house.

    I’m not saying everyone should support homosexuality or be negative about it. Everyone should just be neutral about it. Sure it “may not be natural” to some people, but why does it matter so much, if they aren’t hurting someone? Just because a book says so? If someone was homosexual and they were the most kindest person I have ever met… I don’t see why they should go to hell, opposed to men who are just cruel and selfish.

    On another note, great article none-the-less. This is also on a website, if you would google “why can’t i own a canadian”. I can’t wait to see more articles from you! Keep it up!

  85. #85 by Adam Neira on February 17, 2010 - 11:10 am

    As prophesied, one day we will all worship the same G-d. The basic Catholic beliefs, i.e. Heterosexuality, family, monogamy etc, are very close to traditional Jewish and Islamic beliefs.

    We are not that far away from each other if we can build on certain basic tenets of faith.
    Now the first plank in that foundation that no-one except the satanists would disagree with me on is…

    Child sexual abuse is wrong.

    Believe it or not from this very basic yet essential truth, a whole worldview and legal structure can be formulated. After primary agreement is reached on this point we can then discuss the idea of sovereignty, i.e.

    A child becomes an adult. An adult becomes a couple. A couple becomes a family…A family becomes a community…A community becomes a nation…A nation becomes the world…The world becomes a civilization.

    Perhaps a truly sovereign individual’s presence is required in the Holy City, tout de suit.

  86. #86 by stupid and stupider on February 17, 2010 - 4:57 pm

    Isn’t it at least a little curious that the New Testament just happens to affirm … every prediction and prophesy of the so-called Old one. Gee, I guess that makes everything in the OT true! Wow, now I’m learning how to really think for myself.

    As we learned in MKUltra (mind kontrol ultra), the first step in any reformation of the personality requires first the creation of an Alternate Personality. This is most efficiently done by scientific administration of extreme and simultaneous injustice and pain. The mind deals with the pain and injustice by trying to isolate it, and so creates for its own protection, the desired Alternate Personality. The AP then takes over and protects the real and creative personality, which pre-existed the alternate one. The AP will also do whatever it takes to protect itself, include organize into secret societies and mafias, and they will also adopt a veneer (called church doctine) to hide and protect the flawed AP.

    The wounded or AP does not care about minor discrepancies … instead the AP will pick and choose which ones it needs at different times in order to protect itself and the real creative personality that it wants to bury (to protect as well).

    As in MKUltra, and as in Talmudic Judaism, and as in ancient African Voodoo, the AP does not develop by itself. In order to successfully exert mind control, a “priest” is required. The method most universally used is circumcision. Circumcision, forced removal of the un-detached foreskin of a toddler male child is like ripping off a fingernail. Inside the sheath, the penis is an INTERNAL ORGAN of the male. Before puberty, the foreskin, which is where all the nerves, and protective glands with their abundand blood supply, are located, is attached to glans of the penis, exactly like a fingernail is attached to a finger. It doesn’t detach until puberty, plus or minus. If you have ever watched the face of a child, while a serial child molester called a Mohel rips, with vigorous force, its foreskin (fingernail) off a tender and sensitive internal organ, you have watched the scientific creation of an Alternate Personality, that can be more easily mind controlled by the rabbi, priest, and etc. Photographs of the faces of children, showing creation of alternate personalities while their foreskins are being forcefully ripped away from the internal organ that they protect, can be found at http://www.sexuallymutilatedchild.org.

    If the circumcision is success at creating the desired AP, the priest and/or rabbi, voodoo charismatic, mkultra controller, is free to program the child for more advanced states of AP, by sexual molestation, and other means. In the demographics of the catholic church, and protestant and jewish congregations and synagogs as well, a certain percentage of the general population must be successfully set aside into alternate states. Those designated wounded or “alternate” personalities are needed as cannon fodder for the human armies that bankers-usurers need to maintain their system of control by wars.

    People who “believe” God put all His knowledge of the Universe inside the “total truth” of the four corners of a 2-inch thick book are not really insane. Their alternate personalities are merely “believing” in the “brute force and truth” of some rigid and hypothetical (or alternate) reality as a substitute for the poetic, dynamic, loving, and creative reality of which the real personality is a part. When we surrender our children to priests, mullas, rabbis or doctors (who are the new priests with their white smocks, and their money, scalpels, needles and chemicals), who SYSTEMATICALLY, KNOWINGLY and HABITUALLY sexually mutilate them, starting with circumcision and graduating to mass sexual molestations of higher orders (including their kidnapping and ritutal torture-murder and sacrifice), we end up with nations of bible believers.

    All the prophesies of the Old Testament are proven true, because … the New Testament proved them so.

    This kind of thinking is evidence of creations of mass alternate personalities in “the believers.”

  87. #87 by Deborah Collins on February 18, 2010 - 12:05 am

    Meatwad, Thank you for your comments. You mention your question in your previous post, the one about Lucifer, I presume? The word, Lucifer, is Latin for “light-bearer,” not “bright morning star.” It’s a translation of the Hebrew word, Heylel, which also means bearer of light. The KJV in Isaiah 14:12 calls Lucifer “son of the morning,” but this is not the morning star or day star by any means. The KJV is by far the most accurate English version of the scriptures, as the others were translated from Catholic corrupted manuscripts. It’s pretty obvious from the context of the different verses that the Lord Jesus Christ is the bright and morning star, and the day star. Jesus Christ will conquer Lucifer (Satan) and Lucifer will first fall to earth (Luke 10:18-20), then be forced into the lake of fire (Rev. 20:10).

    Allow me to apologize for any confusion caused by my post in which I said that the probability of the messianic prophecy in Daniel 9 is 1 in “105.” The quote from the site was 1 in 10 to the fifth power but did not print correctly when posted here. There are many other prophecies which were fulfilled by Christ with an even lesser probability.

    Yes, there are pagan myths with characters and storylines much like that of the Bible; but have you considered the possibility that Satan has always been privy to the plan of God to send a saviour for the human race. He was present in the Garden the first time God spoke of it. (Gen. 3:15). He could have influenced pagan minds to concoct those myths in order to confuse the issue even down to the modern day, as you are an example of that. None of those pagan myths has salvation offered to its hearers for simply believing that the “god” became man and died for sin. All pagan cults in history and in modern times have a common theme: works and ritual.

    The Bible is really an astouncing piece of work that could only have been produced by someone outside of time and history, someone who knew the end from the beginning. Even though it was written by numerous authors in numerous books over the span of thousands of years, its main theme (redemption) runs through it like a scarlet thread. Have you taken the time to really read it or do you just rely on the polemics of its detractors?

  88. #88 by AHMED K on February 18, 2010 - 9:04 am

    In the Bible, you don’t have the full, unchanged Word of God…
    The overwhelming bulk of the Bible, has been changed, altered, added, subtracted…
    The actual Revelation Word of God is the needle in the haystack bulk of human product…

  89. #89 by Nelspruit on February 18, 2010 - 1:57 pm

    Morons the old testament is fully valid, Did not Christ himself say, Not one jot or tittle of the law sha;ll change till all of this comes to pass? I would quote the verse but can’t be arsed to look it up. You are all going to hell because you ignored Jesus.

  90. #90 by Amerikagulag on February 18, 2010 - 3:50 pm

    Sane Person….thanks for the vote of confidence.

    I understand you frustration with the continuing saga of ‘is it true or not’, and I share it, sincerely I do. My last hope is that ‘if’ facts are continually displayed and repeated, it may enlighten one person as it did me many years back. And as we know, a raging fire can grow from one spark.

    In this day, there are far too many negative and evil forces manipulating the mass mentality. religion is one of them, probably the worst of them, especially in the undeveloped world. I don’t claim any influence with my little blurbs, I only hope that someone might see something like, “Nazareth didn’t exist until the 4th century”, and say, “WHAT”??? That may provide just the spark to carry on the torch to counter this insidious nonsense. It may turn one person around. One person is better than none.

  91. #91 by Amerikagulag on February 18, 2010 - 3:53 pm

    Nelspruit
    February 18, 2010 at 1:57 pm

    “..You are all going to hell because you ignored Jesus….”

    There you go again with your sadistic deity Moloch, and his lust for punishment.

    There is no Hell. Reincarnation is THE LAW. There is only birth, rebirth and final reunion. And YOU can’t prove otherwise. But I can prove that yours isn’t founded on fact. Nazareth didn’t exist until the 4th century.

  92. #92 by Deborah Collins on February 18, 2010 - 4:24 pm

    God promised to preserve his word and he did, for us, in the English King James Authorized Version, the only modern English version to contain the Hebrew Masoretic Text that was carefully guarded through time by scrupulous Hebrew scholars and scribes. Its New Testament is based on the Received Text that the earliest Christians accepted as authentic. All other modern versions are based either solely, or very heavily (NKJV) on corrupt versions produced by the Roman Catholic Church. One of those manuscripts was found at the Vatican itself and the other at a Catholic monastery. The Old Testament in these corrupt perversions is a re-write with countless unnecessary changes. These corrupt versions are the reason for much of the confusion today about the gospel, and for the fact that Protestants are becoming more “Roman Catholic” without even realizing it.

    “The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.” (Psalms 12:6-7)

    You either trust our Creator or you don’t. Your eternity depends upon your decision!

  93. #93 by Lee on February 18, 2010 - 4:37 pm

    NELSPRUIT !!!!! When did “god” ever speak ? never did. his so called talk only is in the mind
    of a person thinking they should do a deed or make a cause for themselves. “this God” has never spoke to anyone, he does not exist.

  94. #94 by Hans on February 20, 2010 - 2:24 am

    hlp54
    February 16, 2010 at 2:21 pm :”The Inquisition tortured and killed thousands for non-belief (after torture and naming others then killed them anyway). The Christians who burned alive old women and other for being “witches.””

    Not so. The Bible says: You shall not kill.

    Therefore logic tells that the people who committed these crimes where no Christians.

    Are you mistaking the Original with the Fake?

    Not everybody who claims to be a Christian, is one.

  95. #95 by mike on February 20, 2010 - 2:50 am

    This is funny :)

  96. #96 by The Prodigal Son on February 21, 2010 - 2:10 am

    I bet you’re glad you posted this one, eh Mark?

    It really is a tragedy to see SO MANY people here – LOST! I could easily take up a terrabyte just replying to the deluded masses here!

    On one hand we’ve got folks like Amerikagulag (and his admirers) spouting off the same old, SAME OLD Communist Atheist Soviet-style propaganda… which springs forth from the inventions & teachings of the FAKE ‘Jew’ Karl Mordechai (AKA Karl Marx – who was the grandson of a FAKE ‘Jewish’ rabbi).

    I’m sure Amerikagulag has even read ‘The Protocols of Zion’, and KNOWS that their objective is first to destroy true Christianity and eventually to replace it w/ ‘Judaism’ (Pharisaism)… But he still falls for it, and in his cleverness becomes a fool and a tool of Satan.

    He chides people for their faith in the Word of God (not just A book – but the very FIRST BOOK there ever was), which he CLAIMS was written by ‘Jews’ (nonsense)… but at the same time he has no problem putting all of his own FAITH in other books which REALLY were written by the anti-Christ ‘Jews’!

    I would wager that everyone here who has ‘spouted-off’ AGAINST the Bible – HAS NEVER EVEN READ IT THEMSELVES! It’s much easier just to regurgitate what some other atheist ‘scholars’ have written (for the $$).

    Do yourselves a huge favor and visit:

    http://www.bethlehemstar.net/

    Don’t just dismiss the FACTS contained therein… READ points 1-4. THEN tell us what you think! The TRUTHS expounded on this site are arrived at utilizing Keppler’s laws of planetary motion… and line up PERFECTLY with Jesus’ life and death on the Cross, and the prophecies concerning Him. These are scientifically verifiable events that REALLY took place in history – let’s see you or your ‘Jewish’ heroes debunk Keppler’s laws!

    — — —

    On the other hand – Protestants! For those on here calling themselves Christians… Christianity is NOT (and never was) just ‘Jesus and you’! ‘Sola Scriptura’ is a LIE!

    The fact that there are over TWENTY THOUSAND protestant ‘denominations’ (abominations) – ALL with different versions of ‘the truth’ demonstrates this to anyone who loves the REAL truth more than their own pride.

    “And sitting in his chariot, (the Ethiopian eunuch) was reading Isaiah the prophet. Then the Spirit said to Philip, ‘Go near and overtake this chariot.’

    So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading the prophet Isaiah, and he said, ‘Do you understand what you are reading?’ And (the Ethiopian) said, ‘How can I, unless someone guides me?’ And he asked Philip to come up and sit with him.”
    - Acts 8:28-31

    “And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; knowing THIS FIRST, that NO prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.”
    - II Peter 1:19-21

    If Jesus said the Holy Spirit would lead Christians into ALL TRUTH – then which one of these 20,000+ sects has the ONE truth? I”l tell you – NONE OF THEM!

    Jesus Christ founded a Church on earth. It has always consisted of a TANGIBLE group of people DOING God’s will (and still does to this day.) Truth is NOT relative; truth is not an opinion – truth is ABSOLUTE and there is only ONE TRUTH!

    Jesus said that the gates of Hell would NOT prevail against His Church, so the Church He founded 2,000 years ago is STILL HERE! This means we must determine which faith is the TRUE faith (there is only one.)

    In the book of Jude – verse 3, we read:

    “(…) I found it neccessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was ONCE FOR ALL delivered to the saints.”

    Thus, there is ONE salvation – which is the same for ALL of the elect… This was SET in the apostolic tradition – ONCE AND FOR ALL! So it CANNOT be changed, and it is NOT subject to private interpretation. The faith IS what it IS; what it has ALWAYS been! Our personal opinions will not change reality.

    “Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.”
    - II Thessalonians 2:15

    So called ‘Church-less Christianity’ is a CROCK! Christianity is NOT ‘Jesus and me’ or ‘Me and my Bible’ (Sola Scriptura)!

    “And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, NOT forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, (…)”
    - Hebrews 10:24, 25

    The faith was delivered ONCE AND FOR ALL by Christ – NOT to be added to; NOT to be subtracted from. Roman Catholic papists have ADDED TO that faith once delivered… But the Protestants have SUBTRACTED FROM that faith once delivered. Neither is the truth.

    Therefore the truth is in between somewhere, in a TANGIBLE Church which has ALWAYS been there and is STILL there – which has never added anything and has never taken anything away.

    That ONE Church is the Eastern Orthodox Church. The original Pentarchy consisted of the Churches of Jerusalem, Rome, Alexandria, Antioch and Constantinople.

    The church of Rome and the papists SEPARATED in error from the ONE Church officially in the year 1054 (the Great Schism)… But the other four Churches (of the ONE Church) held on to their faith, and still do. Rome has continued to CHANGE & ADD TO the faith ever since (filioque, immaculate conception, papal infallability, etc). ALL Protestant denominations in the West are derived from the Roman church. ALL of them are OUTSIDE of the truth found in the ONE Church.

    Don’t take my word for it – GO to an Orthodox Church and ASK the priest ANY question you may have, and he will present you with the TRUTH as it has been held faithfully for the last 2,000 years. There is no salvation outside of His Church. We must be born again in water and His Holy Spirit. His Holy Spirit is NOT received by merely believing (even the demons believe!), NOR is the Holy Spirit received through baptism alone!

    The Holy Spirit is received through the laying-on of hands from someone who already has the Holy Spirit. Apostolic succession (and apostolic faith) therfore is PARAMOUNT!

    We must partake of His body AND His blood – or there is no life in us. All will be judged in the end based primarily upon their works. Faith without works IS DEAD. (James 2:20, 26)

    The Bible is not a verse here and a verse there… The Bible is an unbroken WHOLE. Every word must be considered in light of Jesus first, and every other word (along with true Church tradition).

    — — —

    To T.F. – Qouting from the Bible and trying to bring them to Salvation (Jesus) does NOT equate to ‘persecution’!

    Now – concerning the original post RE: the Mosaic law… Jesus Christ IS the fulfillment of the law, the psalms and all of the prophets; God has come to earth in the flesh as was foretold. God gave Moses the law in the O.T. for a reason.

    “What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, ‘TIL the Seed (Christ) should come to whom the promise (to Abraham) was made; (…)

    Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! (…) But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. (…)

    Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. (…)

    For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. (…) And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. (…)

    But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, (…)”
    - Galatians 3:19 – 4:5

    ” ‘Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a New Covenant with the house of Israel AND with the house of Judah – NOT according to the covenant I made with their fathers (…); because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord.

    For THIS is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.’

    In that He says, ‘A NEW covenant,’ He has made the first OBSOLETE. Now what is becoming obselete and growing old is ready to vanish away.” (And vanish it did – FORVER – with the destruction of the temple in 70AD.)
    - Hebrews 8:8-13

  97. #97 by debo52rah on February 21, 2010 - 5:52 pm

    Hello, Prodiagal Son,

    I agree that the myriad of Protestant denominations is an abomination! God would have unity in his church. The problem of so many different streams of thought as to what Christianity should look like today is caused by a simple failure to rightly divide the word of truth. (2 Tim. 2:15).

    People have failed to realize that what happened at Pentecost concerned the “last days” (Acts 2:16, 17) of Israel’s program with God under the law. According to Daniel 9, Israel’s prophetic calendar had at the time of Pentecost only one more installment of curses left before their kingdom was to be established. Didn’t Christ and his disciples go all over Israel saying “the kingdom is at hand.”? Israel’s rejection of their messiah and his kingdom offer (the last straw being the stoning of Stephen, Acts 7) brought about a divine interruption of their prophetic calendar, otherwise their seventieth week of tribulation and their kingdom would be here by now!

    God interrupted Israel’s program and did not pour out his prophesied wrath upon them, but instead he converted Paul and gave him a new gospel with a new plan of salvation sent out to the whole world as individuals, not as one particular favored nation. Paul speaks of Israel under the law, then constantly says, “But now…” (Rom. 3:21; Eph. 2:13, 19). Paul was made the apostle of this new era of Gentile grace that has interrupted Israel’s course of punishments (as per Lev. 26). His writings (Romans-Philemon) tell how to be saved today: by grace through faith in Jesus Christ and not by works or rituals. (eph. 2:8, 9).

    The problem of your church and any other church that believes they are the continuation of Israel, even under her “new covenant,” which is in itself a form of lawkeeping, who go back to Israel’s scriptures, their unique message from God, for their doctrines and practices is that they are trying to approach God in a way that’s no longer acceptable to him while this age of grace lasts. There will come a time when Israel’s program will return and then the books of Hebrews through Revelation will be utilized by the faithful remnant who go through the tribulation, but those books are not for us.

    Until so-called believers wake up and stop trying to be someone they’re not, this confusion will cause countless sincere, vulnerable people to be thrown into the lake of fire at the white throne judgment. Don’t let it happen to you!

  98. #98 by The Prodigal Son on February 22, 2010 - 10:12 pm

    Debo52rah,

    Dispensationalism is a lie. The Eastern Orthodox Church is Israel now. The true Israel has nothing to do w/ (Pharisees) ‘Jews’ (though they have usurped the name for their STOLEN anti-Christ state in Palestine.)

    This new Israel (the Church) is the continuation and the fulfillment of all of the O.T. Scriptures, born in one day (Pentecost). That’s why the O.T. is part of the Bible – there is unbroken continuity. To reject the O.T. is to reject the history of the Church and how it came to be.

    The Church is the new Israel – born in one day, and Christians are the Israel of God now. Since Christ came there is no more ‘Jew’ or ‘Gentile’… but to those who accept and obey Jesus Christ in faith are the promise to Abraham fulfilled.

    Read my post above again – SLOWLY – and go to an Eastern Orthodox Christian Church with all of your erroneous assertions and all of your questions… the priest there will answer all of them and show you the truth as it has been unchanged for the last 2,000 years.

    Your dispensationalist ideas were born in the 1800s! The Church was born in the first century AD! There is only ONE existing olive tree… NOT two! (See Romans 11:16-36) The nations were grafted in to the existing tree of Israel in faith, while the unbelieving branches were (and are) broken off.

    11:25-27 shows that we are UNITED to the remnant of the faithful in Israel and that this body of believers TOGETHER form the true Israel (for they are not all Israel who are of Israel – Romans 9:6).

    St. Paul explains clearly that those “in Christ Jesus” are now “the Israel of God” – WHICH IS THE CHURCH! (Galatians 6:15, 16) This TRUE Israel is NOT based on fleshly biological ancestry – but on belief in and faithfulness to God’s only Deliverer, the Messiah: Jesus the Christ.

    In this way, and in this way only – all Israel will be saved. Jesus says – VERY CLEARLY:

    “I am THE way, the truth, and the life. NO ONE comes to the Father EXCEPT THROUGH ME.”
    - John 14:6

  99. #99 by debo52rah on February 25, 2010 - 3:10 am

    Prodigal Son,

    I think you’d agree that the most important subject in the Bible is understanding how to establish a right relationship with God so that we will spend eternity with him and not apart from him.

    Israel’s scriptures put forth a gospel that requires works in addition to faith as is declared in James 2:24 (a letter written to “the ten tribes which are scattered abroad,” which is in no way us Gentiles today!). Paul’s scriptures, on the other hand, describe a gospel of faith in Christ without the works of the law. “For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.” (Rom. 10:4) “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God; not of works, lest any man should boast.” (Eph. 2:8,9).

    So, which gospel do you believe, Prodigal Son? That salvation is a free gift for believing that Jesus Christ did everything necessary to secure your justification when he rose from the dead after offering himself for sin? Or, do you believe that in addition to believing that, there are works of righteousness that must be added to your account?

    Paul says that there is coming a day “when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to MY (Paul’s) gospel.” (rom. 2:16). “But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.” (Gal. 1:8). Do you believe Paul’s gospel of faith plus nothing; or Israel’s gospel of faith + works? Your salvation depends on your answer for only one gospel is in effect today.

    P.S. I care not that this truth was re-discovered in the 1800′s because it was there in the scriptures all along, just as justification by faith in Christ alone was re-discovered in the time of the Reformation.

  100. #100 by The Prodigal Son on February 26, 2010 - 1:39 am

    Debo52rah,

    ‘You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe – and tremble.

    But do you want to know, O foolish (wo)man, that faith without works is DEAD?’
    - James 2:19,20

    You really think you can be a Christian without being a part of His Church? You’re only fooling yourself! It’s people like you who give REAL Christians a bad name!

    I REPEAT: Since Christ came, the is NO distinction between ‘Jew’ and ‘Gentile’!!

    Israel is ONE TREE – NOT TWO!

    Christians (real ones) have been grafted in to the existing tree: Faith in (and OBEDIENCE to) Jesus Christ is prerquisite to membership into the tree of Israel. Israel IS Christ’s Church, and the O.T. Saints are members of His Church – having been freed from the curse of death by Christ according to their faith AND works.

    Israel IS NOT composed of anti-Christ ‘Jews’ (Pharisees)!! Never was – never will be!

    You don’t get to pick and choose what books and verses of the Bible you want to adhere to… The Bible is an un-broken whole from beginning to end, and every verse MUST be considered in light of every other verse.

    You said, ‘Israel’s scriptures put forth a gospel that requires works in addition to faith as is declared in James 2:24 (a letter written to “the ten tribes which are scattered abroad,” which is in no way us Gentiles today!).’

    NONSENSE! ‘Gentile’ is a madeoup word; just like the word ‘Jew’ is! If someone is really a Christian – then they are NOT a ‘Gentile’! James (the brother of our Lord & the first bishop of Jerusalem) was a Christian (not a ‘Jew’)… He wrote his epistle to Christians everywhere – NOT ‘Jews’!

    First – James addresses the TWELVE tribes scattered abroad – not ten. Second – Israel consists now of those who accept (and OBEY) Jesus Christ in faith.

    While Judahites (O.T. ‘Jews’) & Benjamites could be called ‘Jews’ because they were of the southern kingdom of Judah (the place)… The other 10 tribes could not be called ‘Jews’ – they were not Judahites OR residents of the kingdom of Judah… They could only be called ‘Israelites’. The letter is addressed to the twelve tribes because Christians ARE become Israel.

    Recall: Christ said, “I was not sent BUT to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” True Israel is not composed of any fleshly race or earthly nation.

    James’ letter was written in GREEK (not Hebrew) and was written as a polemic to ALL of the Churches AGAINST invisible, Churchless ‘religion’ (like yours). James does NOT teach that we are saved by works, but he does teach that a DEAD faith – one WITHOUT works DOES NOT SAVE! He writes AGAINST the heresy of antinomianism: the teaching that moral behaviour is irrelevant to salvation. Christians are not given a free pass or a licence to sin.

    James (writing to CHRISTIANS) is clear when he teaches that the human will is not bypassed in our salvation, and God’s grace DOES NOT nullify personal responsibility. The only place in the whole Bible you will find the words “faith & alone” together is in the epistle of James (2:17 KJV) where it says faith without works is DEAD, and says in 2:24:

    ‘You see then that a man is justified by works and NOT by faith only.’

    Paul says we are “justified by faith apart from the works of the law”… But he speaks here of the Mosaic law and NOWHERE in the Bible does it say we are justified by faith “ALONE”. The Bible speaks only to the contrary!

    What will be the basis of God’s judgement? Paul tells (ALL of) us in Romans 2:2-16… God’s righteous judgement will be:

    1. According to truth (2:2,3) – God sees everything.

    2. According to repentant hearts (2:4,5) – We must always be repentant, to produce confidence before Him at the judgement (I John 2:28.)

    3. According to our DEEDS (2:6-15) – “Doing good” indicates the unity of intentions with actions; FAITH WITH WORKS. We shall ALL be divided through “the righteous judgement of God, who will render to each one ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS.”(Rom 2:6)

    ‘For NOT the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the DOERS of the law will be justified.’ (Rom 2:13)

    Look at Matt 25:31-46 for a prophecy of the universal judgement… The sheep and the goats are separated and judged by what they have DONE on earth… Notice these verses say NOTHING of whether or not the nations believed or not – EVEN THE DEMONS BELIEVE, but belief is not enough & must be accompanied by righteous action!

    ‘Once saved, always saved’ is a LIE! This is easily proven with the account of the excommunication in I Cor 5:1-5… If ‘the Church’ is just some abstract body of ‘believers’ as you would contend – then HOW can anyone be ‘delivered unto Satan’ (or excommunicated)?

    There is protection from Satan only for those who are IN His Church (Matt 16:18)… Outside of His Church, one is subject to the ‘god of this age’: the Devil.

    The Holy Spirit is received NOT through belief alone… NOR is the Holy Spirit received through baptism alone. The Holy Spirit is received through the laying-on of hands in Chrismation from someone IN His Church who already has His Holy Spirit.

    This is the Spirit of Truth – whom the world CANNOT RECEIVE.

    Lastly – take this to heart:

    “Then Jesus said to them, ‘Most asssuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.’” (John 6:53)

    With love,

  101. #101 by debo52rah on February 27, 2010 - 3:51 am

    Prodigal Son,

    You are choosing the wrong gospel to believe in. Ephesians 2:8,9 is clear that “by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of ourselves; it is the gift of God; not of works, lest any man should boast.” I detect quite an air of boasting in your post as to what YOU have done to deserve salvation. Until you quit trying to justify yourself and your own righteousness and lean completely on what the Lord Jesus Christ has done for us through his perfect sacrifice at Calvary, you will come short of the glory of God and be lost.

    Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ without adding your own merit and you will be saved by the faith OF Christ, not by your own faith. Your puny faith can’t save you; only Christ’s is acceptable to his Father. Once you are saved by trusting Christ, then knock yourself out obeying commandments and doing good works all over the place. But if you try to prove to God by your works that you deserve to be saved; watch out, he won’t accept you!

    My hope is in Christ alone and not myself or my poor efforts at goodness. This does not mean I don’t yield to the Holy Spirit indwelling me (1 Cor. 12:13 – by the Spirit, not laying on of hands) in order to walk worthy of the gift God has given me for believing. What do you think grace Christians do with the liberty we’ve been given in Christ, who has made us adult sons of God, fellowheirs with him? Do you think we kill, maim, steal, and commit adultery with impunity? You deny the power of the Holy Spirit if you believe that.

    What I’m saying is that you’re gambling with your salvation if you’re adding your own merit into it; while I am obeying the faith of which Paul speaks by simply trusting that Christ has done it all. Which attitude is more pleasing to God: someone who tries to “help” Christ save him, or someone who throws himself on the mercy of God through his Son, Jesus Christ, who has performed all that is necessary to secure sinful men’s salvation?

    Think about it.

  102. #102 by Lee on February 27, 2010 - 5:21 pm

    The Bible is little more than one culture’s propaganda. It is not the “Word of God” – that’s the propaganda. The Bible is a collection of mummified myths, fabulous fairytales and hideous horror stories, with a bit of history mixed in to give it legitimacy. Even this biblical “history” is so slanted that, on the few instances where it has been confirmed by external sources, these sources take the opposite perspective of the Israelite claims.

  103. #103 by The Prodigal Son on February 27, 2010 - 11:08 pm

    You said, “You are choosing the wrong gospel to believe in.”

    I’ve ALREADY told you: you don’t get to pick and choose!

    The ‘Jesus’ you believe in is not based on reality. You have created an idol in your own mind which you worship because he agrees with what you CHOOSE to believe.

    The REAL Jesus the Christ founded a Church here on earth – a TANGIBLE community of people! It is NOT ENOUGH for you to believe in Him! He wants you to become a part of His body – you must join the community of people which He founded through His apostles or you are NOT part of His body!

    You claim to have the Holy Spirit indwelling you. How did you receive the Spirit? Just by believing? I’ve told you that even the demons believe – so are they then ‘saved’ also?

    Look – the New Testament contains all we need to know about His Church and HOW it functions.

    Christ chose His apostles to found His Church. Before His ascension – He told them not to leave Jerusalem to return to Galilee, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; for John truly baptized with water, but you (apostles) shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

    He also told them, “But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you”… A relationship with Christ is not a one way street and never has been.

    On Pentecost, the apostles received the Holy Spirit as promised and they (being Galileans) spoke in foreign tongues so that the crowd understood them in their own languages.

    So they were amazed and asked Peter, “(…) What shall we do?”

    And Peter answered them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” (Acts 2:38)

    That was the beginning of His Church – immediately there were over 3,000 members, “And they CONTINUED steadfastly IN the apostles doctrine and FELLOWSHIP in the breaking of bread (Eucharist) and in prayers.” (Acts 2:42)

    So you see, from the very beginning – one had to DO more than just believe to be a part of His Church. BEING saved is a process; a faithful relationship… NOT just a moment in time where you can say, “There. Now I’m saved.”

    I notice you ignored my recounting of the excommunication! If the Church is nothing more than an abstract body of believers – then how would you go about excommunicating me? If you were never part of that COMMUNITY – then how could you ever be EX-COMMUNITY?

    If all you had to do was BELIEVE to receive the Holy Spirit… then explain Acts 19:

    ‘And finding some disciples (Paul) said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”

    So they said to him, “We have not so much as HEARD WHETHER THERE *IS* A HOLY SPIRIT.”

    And he said to them, “Into what then were you baptized?”

    So they said, “Into John (the Forerunner)’s baptism.”

    Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.”

    When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. AND WHEN PAUL HAD LAID HANDS ON THEM, the Holy Spirit came upon them, (…)’ (Acts 19:1-6)

    Now look at Acts 8:

    ‘Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.

    For as yet (the Holy Spirit) had fallen upon NONE OF THEM. They had ONLY BEEN BAPTIZED in the name of the Lord Jesus. THEN THEY LAID HANDS ON THEM, AND THEY RECEIVED THE HOLY SPIRIT.

    And when Simon saw THAT THROUGH THE LAYING ON OF THE APOSTLES HANDS THE HOLY SPIRIT WAS GIVEN, he offered them money, saying, “Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”‘ (Acts 8:14-19)

    Or shall I ignore this book of the Bible too?

    I Corinthians 12:3 only proves that there is one body of Christ (which did NOT originate in the 19th century… so what body do you belong to?) It also shows that, as I said – there is NOT one gospel for ‘Jews’ and another for the nations (‘Gentiles’)! But ALL have been made to drink into ONE SPIRIT!

    Here, do yourself a huge favor and listen to these podcasts:

    http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/eastwest

    http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/orthodoxyheterodoxy

    Both of these men were formerly Evangelicals who have come to the truth (of which there is only one.) If I’m wrong, then surely you have nothing to lose by listening to these, right?

  104. #104 by debo52rah on February 28, 2010 - 5:36 pm

    You realize, Prodigal Son, that we’re not doing Christianity any favors by airing our theological differences in a public forum, right? but I do feel it is important that if there is anyone reading this who does want to be saved, that they believe the gospel God is offering today (Paul’s), and not yesterday (during Israel’s program). I didn’t just choose the gospel I believe; I recognize the boundaries God has put in his word to delineate what he wants men to believe in any given dispensation.

    That Israel’s program did not continue is obvious, and that we are not under their “new covenant” is also obvious. Jeremiah 31 says that “they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord, for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord.” If this was true for us today, there’d be no need for “podcasts” (which I did listen to, btw).

    What happened to Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5 – being executed by the Holy Spirit for lying – does not happen today. The Holy Spirit indwells believers today; he does not empower them to do mighty works like these. At Pentecost, the HS came “upon” the believers; today he indwells believers “after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also after that ye BELIEVED, ye were SEALED WITH THAT HOLY SPIRIT OF PROMISE” (Eph. 12-14).

    Jesus told his followers in Mark 16:18 that they could “take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.” Honestly, is this true for today? If you believe it is, I have a bottle of Drano I’d like to see you drink! There are no conditions on these promises; they’re stated as fact. Also the promises that anything you ask of Christ in faith you shall receive…come on, is that true for today? Do you see a pony anywhere around here?

    Paul said that what he was given directly from the Lord to preach (Gal. 1:11-12) was a “mystery, which was kept secret since the world began.” (Rom. 16:25). Peter at Israel’s Pentecost declared that what he was saying had been “spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.” Mystery vs. Prophecy. Paul says, “But now” enough times to let us know that what he preached was different. Why don’t you have all things common with other believers – that’s what Christ told Israel to do: “sell all you have and give alms.” The rich young ruler (Luke 18) refused and wasn’t saved; are you any better than him? Jesus said that if ye love him, obey his commandments…why don’t YOU obey this one? I’m glad I’m not laboring under the false impression that these words are for me!

    Your Eastern Orthodox RELIGION (a process by which man tries to reach God on his own merit) brings back memories of my Roman Catholic upbringing. My uncle was a Very Right Reverend Monsignor and he was full of himself and unteachable, too. Don’t you think that having your churches face the East (the SUN) smacks of paganism. Both of these churches are secretly sun-god worshippers and don’t even know it. Icons of the sun are all over their buildings. Fleshly rituals abound keeping their members tied to the earth instead of looking toward heaven. “There is a way that seems right to a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.” (Prov. 16). Both churches abound in man-made traditions and rules and pagan philosophies like eating their own god.

    The book of Acts is an account of the transition between Israel’s fall and setting aside by God, as well as Paul’s conversion with a new gospel. Galatians 2 recounts what happened at the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15; Gal. 2:7-9 tells us plainly that the twelve apostles understood that Paul’s gospel of the uncircumcision (faith alone w/o works) had superceded their gospel of the circumcision (faith + flesh works) and they stepped back and let Paul take over with his new message. When the supernatural body of Christ is raptured to make way for the return of Israel’s program (Rom. 11:25), then works will re-enter the picture and the gospel of the kingdom will return. Hebrews-Revelation pertain to that future time.

    The demons may believe in Christ, but they don’t trust him; and there’s the difference between shallow belief and saving faith. Jesus Christ died only for humankind and not the supernatural creatures in heaven. It’s human pride that makes men like you want to take some credit for his own salvation by refusing God’s free gift and instead going back to Israel’s law program with its works and lifelong faithfulness requirement. Today, God will not accept you on that basis but is looking for those who trust not in themselves and their own efforts but only in what Jesus Christ has accomplished on our behalf at Calvary.

  105. #105 by The Prodigal Son on March 4, 2010 - 12:33 am

    Debo52rah,

    You are so deluded and thoroughly Judaized it’s actually sad. The worst part is: you don’t even know it.

    Do yourself a favor and google ‘Cyrus Scofield Samuel Untermyer’… and ask yourself why Untermyer (a fake ‘Jew’) would want to finance a NEW interpretation of the Bible.

    You think it might have anything to do with the fact that your new ‘version’ of ‘Christianity’ gives the fake ‘Jews’ a free pass and FALSELY equates them with Old Testament Israel? (Even though since Christ came, the distinction between ‘Jew’ & ‘Gentile’ has been destroyed – that ALL may become the Israel of God THROUGH Him!)

    What do you know of true historic Christianity? Not much! In your mind, there is nothing worth knowing before the year 1800!

    You read the Scriptures… but you interpret them incorrectly because you remove them from the Church which both wrote the books & assembled them!

    You protestants don’t even use the same Old Testament as Christ and His apostles carried and quoted from, which REAL Christians have ALWAYS used (and STILL DO)!

    The protestant O.T. has only 39 books in total (the EXACT same canon used by today’s anti-Christ fake ‘Jews’ – what a coincidence!), while the original Christian Old Testament had 49 books! Don’t you even wonder what’s in those other ten books and other portions that the ‘Jews’ and your ilk saw fit to remove?

    Do you think it’s a good idea to take away from the Bible? (Revelation 22:18,19)

    Worse than that – the O.T. in the Bible you use is based on the ‘rabbinically’ altered Pharisaic texts of the Masoretes! The oldest of these heavily CENSORED Hebrew texts dates back only about 1,000 years!

    The Old Testament in REAL Christian Bibles is from the ORIGINAL, un-censored Greek Septuagint (LXX), which was – in the beginning used by ALL of Christendom, and from which Christ and the apostles qoute from in the New Testament Scriptures (which were also written in Greek).

    Just for fun – why don’t you examine your Masoretic book of Esther side-by-side with the Septuagint (LXX) book of Esther? The differences are MYRIAD!

    Why would you trust texts that have been altered and subtracted from by anti-Christ ‘Jews’ (Pharisees)? Christ denounced the Pharisees and admonished His disciples to ‘Beware the leaven of the Pharisees’ (Matt 16:6-12; Mark 8:15; Luke 12:1)…

    But today, the vast MAJORITY of ‘Christendom’ base their Bibles on the leaven of these Pharisaic, Masoretic texts… while rejecting the original Septuagint! FOOLS!

    Let me remind you though that Jesus Himself NEVER wrote a single word of Scripture! NOT ONE!

    What He DID however was found a Church here on earth! If you really want to be a Christian you must join His ONE Church.

    If you reject His Church – you also neccessarily reject Him.

    “There is ONE body and ONE Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; ONE Lord, ONE faith, ONE baptism; ONE God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.”
    - Ephesians 4:4-6

    But according to you and your ‘Jewish’ funded heretical beliefs – there is one faith for Christians AND ALSO one for the ‘Jews’ – who you falsely label ‘Israel’!

    And Paul writes clearly, “For there is ONE God and ONE Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.”
    - I Timothy 2:5

    But the ONE Mediator established the Church – which is His body! To say that you love Christ, who is the Head of the Church – but at the same time reject His body… is to deny New Testament teaching.

    The first use of the word Church (Greek ‘Ecclesia’) in the N.T. is found in Matthew (16:18), when Christ states His approval of Peter’s confession of the faith and promises, “I will build My Church.” Jesus builds – we cooperate with Him. The faith is not a one way street.

    The book of Acts shows what Jesus meant… At Pentecost, after Peter’s sermon – the people ask for guidance toward the ONE Salvation: “What shall we do?” (Acts 2:37)

    Following Peter’s words, they are baptized, they receive the Holy Spirit, and they JOIN with the other believers… some 3,000 of them. (Acts 2:38-41)

    Having been JOINED in this way to Christ & His Church, these baptized believers – having received the Holy Spirit begin living as the body of Christ. We find them looking after each other, using their personal resources for each other’s care, continuing with one accord TOGETHER in PRAYER and in the Eucharist. (Acts 2:42-47)

    From this point on (to this day), “the Lord added to the Church daily those who were being saved” (Acts 2:47), and throughout Acts, we see the Church being built as the Gospel of Christ spreads.

    The Church is “the new man” (Ephesians 4:24), the new creation, made to be righteous and holy. Only in His Church are we no longer alienated from God (Ephesians 4:18); we are being renewed TOGETHER (Eph 4:23), “members of one another” (Eph 4:25).

    There will be NO ‘pre-trib rapture’, and ‘once saved, always saved’ is a CROCK! (I Cor 5)

    There is ONE Gospel – that Paul says “by which also you are saved, ** IF ** you hold fast that word which I preached to you (…)”

    But that’s a big “IF”… and sadly, MOST of the world will perish, taking the wide, easy path – rather than the straight and narrow.

  106. #106 by debo52rah on March 6, 2010 - 12:43 am

    Prodigal Son,

    My own expertise in regard to the biblical manuscript issue is far from comprehensive, so I wrote to my pastor and asked him about the Septuagint. Here’s his reply:

    “This is simply a matter of wrong assumption leading to the wrong conclusion. He assumes a pre-Christian Septuagint and very often the term “extant” is used with reference to a pre-Christian entity. The word “extant” means that something is in existence today…that it is available…can be seen, handled, and used. This is not in existence and never has been. Along with this false assumption some say that a Greek translation was made around 285-250 BC. No one has ever been able to locate such an entity and no one has been able to find any direct citation to it.

    Let me quote from Floyd Jones “The Septuagint: A critical analysis:

    1) The “letter of Aristeas” is mere fabrication (Kahle called it propaganda), and there is no hard historical evidence that a group of scholars translated the O.T. into Greek between 285-150 B.C. This letter was an attempt to give this revision authority by cloaking it with antiquity. The LXX is a Christian compilation, and the “letter of Aristeas” is a fiction designed to further the use of a revision in Alexandria about 130 B,.C.

    2) The research of Paul Kahle shows that there was no pre-Christian LXX

    3) No one has produced a Greek copy of the O.T. written before 150 A.D.

    4) Aquila, Symmachus, Thoedotin, and Origen produced the first “Septuagints”- that none existed before their works.

    5) The Septuagint “quotes” from the N.T. and not vice versa, i.e. in the matter of N.T. – O.T. quotation, the later formulators of the Greek O.T. made it conform with the N.T. Text which they had before them as they forged their product.

    6) After 1900 years of searching, archaeology has failed to produce a single piece of papyrus written in Greek before c.150 A.D. that any writer of the N.T. used for a “quotation.” (There does exist a single exception, namely the Ryland Papyrus (No.458), which has a few portions of Deuteronomy 23-28 on it. This piece of papyrus is dated 150 B.C. (date questioned). However, the existence of a single sheet does not mean that it represents a complete version or an “authorized” translation or the existence of a Greek translation with widespread acceptance and usage prior to and during the time of Christ and the Apostles. It could, for example, be no more than the remains of a private study endeavor or that of an individual practicing his translating skills, etc.)

    From Peter Ruckman’s “The Christians Handbook of Manuscript Evidence”:

    The N.T. contains 263 direct quotations from the O.T. and 370 allusions to the O.T. Though some have claimed for the Apocrypha several vague “allusions” in the N.T., these are are nebulous mirages. Not one time did anyone in the N.T. refer to or quote from the O.T. Apocrypha. Jesus never referred to the Apocrypha. Had these books belonged in the O.T., why did the Lord not so clarify? The O.T. had been canonized long before Jesus was born. Vaticanus B and Sinaiticus (aleph) include the Apocrypha as part of the O.T. along with spurious “Apocryphal” books such as “Epistle to Barnabas” and “Shepherd of Hermes” in the N.T. We are being told that Vaticanus is the most accurate Greek text which we have yet it includes the Apocrypha and Apocryphal books…none of which was canonized. Yet Origen’s fifth column includes the O.T. Apocrypha.

    This Eastern Orthodox person is building upon the wrong foundation. Origen was NOT a person to be trusted.”

    This is just another attempt to ram a legalistic gospel message down peoples’ throats so that self-proclaimed “Christians” can claim some of the credit for their (non-existent) salvation themselves. Today we are living in the “dispensation of the grace of God” (Ephesians 3:2; Acts 20:24) where men are only saved if they rest on Christ’s merits and not their own. He did it all for us; believe and be saved.

  107. #107 by The Prodigal Son on March 6, 2010 - 7:29 am

    Debo52rah,

    Your ‘pastor’ said?

    Who made your ‘pastor’ a ‘pastor’? Just because someone starts calling themselves something – doesn’t make it so.

    I could start calling myself a doctor… but that wouldn’t actually make me a doctor would it?

    If you know your New Testament – you’ll know this:

    Christ appointed His apostles… and His apostles appointed presbyters and bishops… They didn’t appoint themselves!

    The true Church can trace succession in an UNBROKEN chain of touch – of ordination through the laying-on of hands all the way back to the original apostles.

    Your ‘pastor’s’ ‘church’ cannot demonstrate this succession… a quick look at the history of Christianity will show you that your ‘church’ had a clear BEGINNING in the 19th century – not the first.

    Hence – NO CONNECTION to the original Church founded by Christ. If you want to tell yourself that the first Christians (who walked with Christ Himself) did not know what Christianity was – then there’s nothing I can say that can help you.

    Just do some research on your own for God’s sake!

    Simply google ‘Septuagint’ – do some reading… and you will see for yourself that everything your self-ordained ‘pastor’ said is simply Judaizing propaganda. The Dead Sea Scrolls match the Septuagint more closely than the Masoretic texts… how does your pastor explain that away?

    Trust me – I’m not trying to ‘ram’ anything down your throat… It’s on you to work out your OWN salvation with fear and trembling.

    Ask your ‘pastor’ how he gets around this one:

    “Then Jesus said to them, ‘Most asssuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.

    Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has ternal life and I will raise him up at the last day.’” (John 6:53,54)

    I will pray for you.

  108. #108 by Deborah Collins on March 7, 2010 - 2:14 am

    Prodigal Son,

    So, who’s succession do you believe: that of the Roman Catholic Church or the Eastern Orthodox? Some of those men that reportedly “succeeded” the original apostles were nothing to brag about! Even today, shady dealings abound in the Roman Church, what with pedophilia and homosexual scandal.

    The body of Christ is a supernatural, mystical union of believers with their head, the Lord Jesus Christ. The doctrines that body lives by are found in God’s inspired, preserved word in the epistles of Paul, and not in the “magisterium” of any so-called “church” organization.

    The man I quoted from is my “pastor” because I choose to call him that as his biblical scholarship and godly example have earned him that title. He’s head and shoulders above any teacher or priest or whatever in your organization simply because he understands that God is dealing with the world today apart from Israel’s law and kingdom gospel, with a new gospel of salvation by grace through faith in Christ alone.

    The “eat my flesh” passage in John 6 is how the Lord Jesus symbolically drove home to his people, Israel, that they must completely accept within themselves and digest the fact that he is the Son of God, their promised Messiah, their King-in-waiting, and that he was the perfect Passover sacrifice. This is not what we are asked to believe about Christ today, except that he is the Son of God, the Saviour of all them which believe (trust) in him, that he died for our sins, was buried, and rose again. How could Christ say, “this is my body,” meaning really and actually his body, if he was yet with them? It was a symbolic saying, similar to “I am the vine, ye are the branches.”

    Here’s a question. Do Eastern Orthodox believe in purgatory? If so, how do you justify the idea that you’d be paying for your own sins when Christ already paid for them all? (2 Cor. 5:19).

  109. #109 by Meatwad on March 7, 2010 - 8:08 am

    P-Son and Deb, you two are nit pickin apart what amounts to a literary fraud. That is the term for plagiarized written material, and what you are going back and forth over are the details of a work derived from the literary fraud. It has been covered but that truth you ignored.

    I’ll quote a common definition of a direct objection to one of the christians commandments “they must adhere to” (it’s what Commanded means).

    “Clerics are obliged to observe perfect and perpetual continence for the sake of the kingdom
    of heaven and therefore are bound to celibacy which is a special gift of God by which sacred
    ministers can adhere more easily to Christ with an undivided heart and are able to dedicate
    themselves more freely to the service of God and humanity”

    Commanded BY GOD to go forth and multiply (¿¿ more than monogamy ??), but the church leaders and duh peons, are devoted sinners that lead your faith from so long ago. Evil begets evil in your mind, correct?? Yeah I thunkItSo (sic -humor attempt), you will twist and turn and lie through your teeth to make it seem right, to you. I’m not falling for the evil organized criminal manifesto that has been used to defend terrorous (sic again) actions as well as meekness. “Thou SHALL NOT KILL (murder to new agers and mormon types -also in their twisted attempt to justify enlisting and serving in illegal wars) by your Gods commandment, yet if the politician commands it, by god you SHALL go kill and ask the preacher to pass the ammunition. When the “collateral damage” is a group of children what are your excuses for that? ‘Gods will” does it for you, and you go to sleep just fine?? Your faith has been tested, the result was applied, and you earned your big FaT F’s.

    See ISamuelII@youtube if you care for truth justice and the american way (a list, three items not necessarily related).

  110. #110 by The Prodigal Son on March 7, 2010 - 10:38 pm

    Debo52rah,

    The Roman church and the Orthodox Church have do have common apostolic ancestry in the ONE Church. After the Roman empire moved Eastward to Byzantium the Church consisted of the Pentarchy of: Jerusalem, Alexandria, Antioch, Constantinople & Rome.

    ALL held to the ONE faith once delivered. But in the year 1054 AD, Rome separated from the others in error with the arbitrary addition to the Creed of the ‘filioque’. This papal error asserted that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father AND THE SON – when Christ Himself clearly states that the Spirit proceeds from the Father (John 15:26).

    So while Rome can show valid succession – they have abandoned the apostolic faith, thereby invalidating their succession. The Orthodox do not believe in the ultimate, infallable authority of the pope, the immaculate conception of Mary, or purgatory. But IF you had REALLY listened to those podcasts @ the links I provided for you – you’d have already known that wouldn’t you?!

  111. #111 by The Prodigal Son on March 8, 2010 - 1:46 am

    Debo52rah,

    Your “pastor’s” spiel of “Biblical scholarship” is so laughable – I wasn’t even going to reply… but I can’t resist!

    Your “pastor” is basically accusing the earliest Christians of being bald-faced liars… and I simply cannot allow his blasphemous statements to stand here uncontested.

    (Mark Glenn – this will be my final post on this matter. Thank you for your patience.)

    First of all your “pastor’s” definition of ‘extant’ might be helpful for some – but it is a moot point. Before the Dead Sea Scrolls were found there were no ‘extant’ pre-Christian O.T. texts at all! Does this mean that if the Qumran texts had not been found, your “pastor” would not have believed in the existence of a pre-Christian Hebrew O.T. either? Ridiculous!

    The Greek speaking Judahite philosopher Aristobulous wrote (approx. 140 BC) of the O.T. translation from Hebrew to Greek in the days of Ptolemy’s reign.

    Both Philo of Alexandria AND Flavius Josephus wrote of the Septuagint BEFORE 100 AD, both ALSO referencing Ptolemy and his commissioning of the translation for the library in Alexandria. It is said that the population of Alexandria at that time was approximately 2/5ths Hellenized Israelite extraction… is it so hard to imagine Greek speaking Israelites also desiring to have their Scriptures available in Greek?

    A Pharisee named Aquila produced a fresh, censored (Judaized) Greek version as a REACTION to to Christian’s usage of the Septuagint in 128 AD.

    The author of the the O.T. book ‘Wisdom of Sirach’, AKA Ecclesiasticus (which had originally been written by his grandfather Jesus Ben Sirach) in approx. 180 BC, translated the work into Greek in around 130 BC wherein he (the grandson) ALSO references the existence of the Septuagint (the Law and the prophets).

    Now to address the numbered points you provided specifically…

    1. Who says the letter of Aristeas is a fabrication? The preponderance of ‘Biblical scholars’ are (or are funded by and cater to) anti-Christ ‘Jews’ (Pharisees)! Regardless – even their own anti-Christ Talmud belies their ‘expertise’ – as it ALSO records the story of the Septuagint: of 72 Israelites having translated the O.T. into Greek for Ptolemy’s library. “A revision”? Well that contradicts point #3 doesn’t it?!

    2. Paul Kahle was a notorious Judaizer! From Wikipedia:

    “… Kahle migrated to England and the University of Oxford in 1939, having been dismissed from his University post in Bonn, owing at least in great part to the fact that he had a Polish rabbi (Yechiel Yaakov Weinberg) as an assistant.

    (…) His principal academic renown is as editor of the Hebrew Bible. (…) Part of his work is published in the book What the Koran Really Says…”

    I have refuted his ‘research’ above with facts that are well known.

    3. See point #1, as well as my intro above.

    4. Ludicrous! See above. Origen created the Hexapla (meaning ‘sixfold’) around 250 AD with SIX versions of the Old Testament side by side (and eight versions of the Psalms) in one work. It contained the O.T. in:

    - The ‘extant’ Hebrew (Akiba’s fr. the 2nd century)
    - Akiba’s Hebrew literally transliterated into Greek characters
    - Aquila’s work
    - Symmachus’ work
    - The Septuagint (with highlights demonstrating differences between it & the Hebrew of the time)
    - Theodotion’s work

    5. This point is beyond ridiculous and I will plainly call it blasphemous! This logic says that the N.T. authors were liars then?

    If Jesus and His apostles weren’t quoting from the Septuagint – then what were they quoting from? 2/3rds of their quotes DO NOT match the Masoretic Hebrew which the KJV and other English translations are based on… So WHERE were they quoting from? You do know that the words Genesis, Exodus, Levticus, Deuteronomy, Ecclesiastes, etc. are all Greek words don’t you?

    6. This makes the ‘point’ that archaeology hasn’t turned up a SINGLE piece – then says, “Well – O.K., there is a single piece – but, but… The date is questioned!” Hah! Questioned by WHO? I’ll tell you – so-called ‘Jewish scholars’ like Kahle!

    Need I remind you that Christianity was ILLEGAL throughout the Roman empire until the time of Constantine early in the fourth century? Christians were ruthlessly persecuted and murdered before 313 AD, and their books were systematically confiscated & burned!

    NONE of the New Testament autographs have survived complete to this day either… Will your brilliant “pastor” now deduce that the N.T. writings also therefore did not exist? Since the oldest complete example of a New Testament manuscript dates to no earlier than 275 BC – can we assume then that Christianity did not even exist before that date? Note also that all of the ‘extant’ texts originated also in Alexandria – which was an eminent center of learning around the time of the commencement of the so-called ‘common era’.

    Lastly, the statements of Peter Ruckman against the so-called ‘apocrypha’ obviously COMPLETELY IGNORE the existence of the Septuagint in searching for quotes from the O.T. The ‘Jews’ (Pharisees) did not declare their O.T. Canon closed until AT LEAST 90 AD at the council of Jamnia… And just because Jesus never specifically lists off all of the O.T. Books doesn’t mean they didn’t exist! Jesus never listed the 39 books of the protestant/Pharisaic canon either!

    You want to talk about direct quotes from the O.T. Found in the N.T.? O.K… Guess what?

    There are approx. 300 O.T. quotations found in the New Testament… of those 300 – at least 200 come directly from the Greek Septuagint and are NOT found in the Masoretic (pharisaic) Hebrew! These quotes *DO* INCLUDE examples from the ‘apocryphal’ books (removed from the O.T. by the ‘Jews’ & the protestants!) This clearly proves that Jesus and His apostles read from the Septuagint INCLUDING the ‘deuterocanonicals’.

    Here – for you – is just one quote which IS found in the Septuagint… But IS *NOT* found in the Masoretic Hebrew:

    “Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and you shall call His name Immanuel.”
    - Matt 1:23/Isaiah 7:14

    For more examples see:

    http://www.scripturecatholic.com/septuagint.html

    (Thanks again Mark Glenn!)

  112. #112 by Deborah Collins on March 10, 2010 - 5:19 pm

    In regard to the doctrine of Purgatory, Prodigal Son, if the Orthodox churches do not believe in an intermediate state for believers in which the final outcome of their destination can mitigated or changed, why does the Orthodox church allow offerings to be made and prayers to be said FOR the dead, such as this one:

    “Again we pray for the repose of the soul(s) of the servant(s) of God (name(s)), departed this life; and that he (she, they) may be pardoned all his (her, their) sins, both voluntary and involuntary.”

    It actually doesn’t amount to a hill of beans what Catholics or Orthodox do in regard to their dead. Those who have not trusted Christ completely for their salvation are lost anyway; and both of those religious sects wrongly place emphasis on the member’s own works and efforts to get saved and stay saved. They obey a gospel that has been rendered ineffective by the new dispensation of grace brought in by God through our apostle Paul for today.

    No wonder there are so many atheists and haters of God such as those in this forum when the largest denominations that name the name of Christ have continually obscured the real gospel by making up their own rules and traditions, many drawn from pagan sources, and present to the world a confusing disarray of doctrines and in-fighting that is enough to drive seekers of truth away!

    God is holding out his hand to all today and offering the riches of heaven’s treasure to any who will simply trust his Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, who died to save us at Calvary, and rose again. We need to get that simple message across or billions will perish.

  113. #113 by Deborah Collins on March 12, 2010 - 2:33 am

    Dear Prodigal Son,

    As that was your last post in regard to the Septuagint, I thank you for letting me have the “last word,” or should I say my pastor.

    You wrote, “Your “pastor” is basically accusing the earliest Christians of being bald-faced liars… and I simply cannot allow his blasphemous statements to stand here uncontested.” My pastor replied, “This accusation is untrue. I never used the word “liar.” Why is he??? In responding to him I never used the word “blasphemous.” This word means to “speak evil of.” I simply disagreed with him…never called him evil. He is simply “unsaved.” Catholics believe Peter came to Rome…yet there is no Biblical evidence showing this. Contrarily, the book of Romans says Paul was there, in 2 verses…yet Rome never claimed Paul to be the first pope. Why not. Do you think it could be “doctrinal” issues from Paul’s epistles that Rome disagrees with?”

    You stated, “First of all your “pastor’s” definition of ‘extant’ might be helpful for some – but it is a moot point. Before the Dead Sea Scrolls were found there were no ‘extant’ pre-Christian O.T. texts at all!” Pastor Ray replied,”The Qumran community is said to have been built around 110 BC and then abandoned. It was resettled between 4-6 AD. It was populated by Jewish Christians called Ebionites: Symmachus, Aquilla, and Theoditan. The scrolls were brought to Bethlehem and were finally sold to a Professor E.L. Sukenik of the Hebrew University and to Metropolitan Samuel of St. Marks Syrian Orthodox Monastery–N.B. No Christians were involved in either transaction. One is a Jew and the other a Greek Orthodox sacramentalis. Rather than finding a stack or pre-Christian LXX’s, the following were found in the cave:

    1. An Isaiah scroll…written in Hebrew, containing chapters 10,13, 16, 19-30, 35-66. This Dead Sea scroll agrees with the Hebrew Masotetic Test (the Hebrew OT along with the vowel points to aid in pronunciation).The earliest Masoretic Text which we have is dated 900 AD. Almost no changes have occurred in the Book of Isiah. Isaiah 53, for example, contains only one word which is in doubt after nearly eleven hundred years of copying. In a chapter of 166 words, only 17 were different…10 were spelling and 4 were conjunctions.
    2. “The Order of Warfare”…19 columns of text describing some figurative war found nowhere in the Bible.
    3. “The Thanksgiving Hymns”…containing 12 columns of psalms or about 20 psalms, none of which weree written in Greek.
    4. St. Mark’s Isaian Scroll: a complete scroll of Isaiah written in Hebrew.
    5. “The Habakkut Commentary”…Hab.1,2 with a running interpretation.
    6. “The Manual of Discipline”…rules for a religious community that have nothing to do with any Bible…none of it was in Greek and it wasn’t Biblical.”

    You wrote, “Does this mean that if the Qumran texts had not been found, your “pastor” would not have believed in the existence of a pre-Christian Hebrew O.T. either? Ridiculous!” Pastor Ray pointed out, “Again, he’s adding something I never said or brought up. I wonder why??? The question is totally irrelevant.”

    You asserted that, “The Greek speaking Judahite philosopher Aristobulous wrote (approx. 140 BC) of the O.T. translation from Hebrew to Greek in the days of Ptolemy’s reign.
    Both Philo of Alexandria AND Flavius Josephus wrote of the Septuagint BEFORE 100 AD,” Pastor Ray points out, “He is using Josephus to help his point of view, yet he knocks the Pharisees and calls them anti-Christ Jews. Josephus is often cited as having used the Septuagint. However no quotes of his having done so are ever offered to certify such a claim. A member of the Pharisee sect from age 10 until the end of his life, Josephus corroborates the story as related to “Aristeas” with only slight variatians. It is generally agreed that almost certainly, he had access to the letter. Thus, Josephus is NOT an actual proven independant source. Moreover, no real evidence exists demonstrating that he ever used or even saw a Septuagint” You: “both ALSO referencing Ptolemy and his commissioning of the translation for the library in Alexandria.” Ray: “The proof quotations are found to only exist in manuscripts that were written several hundred years after the fact. Moreover, the real LXX for all practical purposes is found to be actually Vaticanus B and Sinaiticus Aleph…which were both produced from Origen’s fifth column.” You: ” It is said that the population of Alexandria at that time was approximately 2/5ths Hellenized Israelite extraction… is it so hard to imagine Greek speaking Israelites also desiring to have their Scriptures available in Greek?” Ray: “Is it hard to imagine that Hellenized Jews were also brought up with their native tongue…given their history of oppression and sticking together?”

    You wrote: “A Pharisee named Aquila produced a fresh, censored (Judaized) Greek version as a REACTION to to Christian’s usage of the Septuagint in 128 AD.
    The author of the the O.T. book ‘Wisdom of Sirach’, AKA Ecclesiasticus (which had originally been written by his grandfather Jesus Ben Sirach) in approx. 180 BC, translated the work into Greek in around 130 BC wherein he (the grandson) ALSO references the existence of the Septuagint (the Law and the prophets).”

    Pastor Ray answered: “God is the author of all the books in my Bible. My Bible indicates that Ecclesiastes was penned by Solomon…somewhere in the vicinity of 977BC. The name “Sirach” is never mentioned in my Bible. I wonder if he [you] knows the doctrinal reason for this book? It would help him understand other issues…like salvation!”

    You wrote, “Now to address the numbered points you provided specifically…
    1. Who says the letter of Aristeas is a fabrication? The preponderance of ‘Biblical scholars’ are (or are funded by and cater to) anti-Christ ‘Jews’ (Pharisees)! Regardless – even their own anti-Christ Talmud belies their ‘expertise’”

    Ray answered, “Name calling again and hatred for Jews. These statements have no basis in truth. His bias is obvious. I wish he had the verses to back up his allegations. But then, both of us Debbie, came out of Catholocism and were brain washed the same way. The “Letter of Aristeas” is preserved in the highly spurious non-canonical collection of fiction called “The Forgotton Books of Eden.” This letter is the principal source of information concerning the origin of the Septuagint.” YOU: “as it ALSO records the story of the Septuagint: of 72 Israelites having translated the O.T. into Greek for Ptolemy’s library. “A revision”? Well that contradicts point #3 doesn’t it?!” RAY: ” The obvious contradiction here is that LXX equals 70, not 72. That should arch your eyebrows. How come he never addressed this issue? According to the Bible, who was given authority to copy out the Scriptures? The Levites! Thus, all the scribes in the Bible were from the tribe of Levi. For example, the Book of Ezra records that Ezra was a “ready scribe,” and that he was a priest, hence, from the tribe of Levi (Ezra 7:6,10,11). Obviously then, God would never inspire such a work as described by Aristeas, Philo, Josephus, etc. because it violates His very instructions as heretofore disclosed. Nor would the priests and Levites select or approve men from the other 11 tribes to translate Scripture. Scripture shows the religious, scriptural, and God breathed impossibility of scribes from all 12 tribes, no matter the number of people conjured up. Thus this spurious tale stands exposed as unscriptural and, as such, falls on its face before the fire of God’s Word as surely as did the statue of Dagon (1Sam.5:1-7)”

    YOU: ”
    2. Paul Kahle was a notorious Judaizer! From Wikipedia: [Ray - Now he wants me to believe Wikipedia??] “… Kahle migrated to England and the University of Oxford in 1939, having been dismissed from his University post in Bonn, owing at least in great part to the fact that he had a Polish rabbi (Yechiel Yaakov Weinberg) as an assistant. [Ray: Sounds to me that he was canned for trying to expose truth from error.]
    (…) His principal academic renown is as editor of the Hebrew Bible. (…) Part of his work is published in the book What the Koran Really Says…”
    I have refuted his ‘research’ above with facts that are well known.” RAY: “Your facts are well known to Catholic “scholars” but not to Bible believers.”

    YOU wrote: ”
    3. See point #1, as well as my intro above.
    4. Ludicrous! See above. Origen created the Hexapla (meaning ’sixfold’) around 250 AD with SIX versions of the Old Testament side by side (and eight versions of the Psalms) in one work. It contained the O.T. in:
    - The ‘extant’ Hebrew (Akiba’s fr. the 2nd century)
    - Akiba’s Hebrew literally transliterated into Greek characters
    - Aquila’s work
    - Symmachus’ work
    - The Septuagint (with highlights demonstrating differences between it & the Hebrew of the time)
    - Theodotion’s work
    5. This point is beyond ridiculous and I will plainly call it blasphemous! This logic says that the N.T. authors were liars then?”

    Ray answered: “My logic rests upon the verses and context, the majority text, the written fact that God promised to preserve His Word through written copies (Ex.17:14, etc.). Jesus Christ also believed this: Matthew 22:31 (KJV) But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, Nobody had the originals then, they were destroyed. So, He believed this too. This is the reason for the Manuscript Evidence issue…which Bible is the correct one for us…English speaking people. Erasmus knew it…he studied the issue with the compliments and access of the Catholic libraries at the time. He came to the right conclusion based on his study and access to all the MSS available at that time. This is what brought about the Reformation…Luther…etc.”

    YOU charge: “If Jesus and His apostles weren’t quoting from the Septuagint – then what were they quoting from? 2/3rds of their quotes DO NOT match the Masoretic Hebrew which the KJV and other English translations are based on…[RAY: This is a bald faced lie and I don't have the time to go into it.] So WHERE were they quoting from? You do know that the words Genesis, Exodus, Levticus, Deuteronomy, Ecclesiastes, etc. are all Greek words don’t you?
    6. This makes the ‘point’ that archaeology hasn’t turned up a SINGLE piece – then says, “Well – O.K., there is a single piece – but, but… The date is questioned!” Hah! Questioned by WHO? I’ll tell you – so-called ‘Jewish scholars’ like Kahle! [RAY: This person has some serious animosity against Jews!]

    YOU: “Need I remind you that Christianity was ILLEGAL throughout the Roman empire until the time of Constantine early in the fourth century? Christians were ruthlessly persecuted and murdered before 313 AD, and their books were systematically confiscated & burned!” RAY: “But they were still there, weren’t they, to maintain the witness. Consider this your reminder! Read 1Cor.4:9, Paul, speaking of the Roman circus, under Nero, where the Christians were brought out and slaughtered last because the crowd was well drunk by then and bloodthirsty. Yet, the message still survived…didn’t it…despite Rome/Catholocism/scholars, and all the “textual criticism,” etc…the message of God’s free gift of salvation…not the “probation” that Rome [and Orthodox] teaches!”

    YOU: “NONE of the New Testament autographs have survived complete to this day either… Will your brilliant “pastor” now deduce that the N.T. writings also therefore did not exist? [RAY: Over and over again it is he who comes to these spurious deductions.] Since the oldest complete example of a New Testament manuscript dates to no earlier than 275 BC – can we assume then that Christianity did not even exist before that date? [RAY: Yes, but ithis is not an assumption. How could Christianity exist before Christ???] Note also that all of the ‘extant’ texts originated also in Alexandria – which was an eminent center of learning around the time of the commencement of the so-called ‘common era’.” RAY answers: “Alexandria is an Egyptian city. Cities are cesspools of rebellion and religion. (Gen.4:17:built as a monument to his own self serving rebellion against God). Egypt (in the Bible), is a type of the world…not something good in the Lord’s eyes. According to my God and scripture and the Hebrew Masoretic text of the KJB, nothing good came out of Egypt. This person is promoting just the opposite of what scripture teaches. The “corrupted” versions of scripture came out ot Alexandria. I doubt he understands the “majority text” issue…the methodology of the “received text” as opposed to the methodology developed to produce what he and so many have come to believe and swallow…the “minority text.” Their methodology is simple, they have 2 points:
    1. The preferred reading is the one which best suits the context.
    2. The preferred reading is the one which best explains the origen of the others.
    In other words, you pull out the readings that you think is best regardless of the evidence.
    The techniques of determining the “majority text” are different…7 of them:
    1. Antiquity
    2. Number…or the consent of witnesses
    3. The variety of the evidence
    4. Continuity…there is an unbroken tradition
    5. The respectability of the witnesses, or as they say today, the weight of evidence
    6. The context…the evidence of the entire book
    7. Internal considerations”

    You write: “Lastly, the statements of Peter Ruckman against the so-called ‘apocrypha’ obviously COMPLETELY IGNORE the existence of the Septuagint in searching for quotes from the O.T. The ‘Jews’ (Pharisees) did not declare their O.T. Canon closed until AT LEAST 90 AD at the council of Jamnia… And just because Jesus never specifically lists off all of the O.T. Books doesn’t mean they didn’t exist!” Ray: “But this is only “your” assumption…unproveable from the Bible. How things change (word and context wise) when promoting one of Satan’s plans…which is to corrupt the Word of God.” YOU: “Jesus never listed the 39 books of the protestant/Pharisaic canon either!” Ray: “Let’s see what Jesus said: Luke 24:44 (KJV) And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. My Bible says that all scripture is “inspired” by God (2Tim.3:16). This verse reads the same way in my wifes 1963 Catholic Bible.”

    Pastor Ray goes on: ”
    Jesus (after His death…in Luke 24), divided the O.T. into 3 parts, according to this verse (Korah, Nabhim, and Kethubin). The Hebrew Bible has 24 books. My Bible has 39 OT books. The difference comes in how the individual books were grouped. The 1611 King James Bible has everything that is contained in the Hebrew Masoretic text. Nothing is mentioned of the apocryphal books (which were written by Israel in her apostacy during the 400 years of silence from God). Read again what the Lord says: “that all things must be fulfilled.” This means the OT was complete…right from the Lord’s mouth. This is good enough for me. If not, then the crucified Lord is lying…in other words, not everything was fulfilled up to the point He spoke those words.”

    You accuse: “You want to talk about direct quotes from the O.T. Found in the N.T.? O.K… Guess what?
    There are approx. 300 O.T. quotations found in the New Testament… of those 300 – at least 200 come directly from the Greek Septuagint and are NOT found in the Masoretic (pharisaic) Hebrew!” Ray answers: “This is his big mistake. Somehow somebody poisoned his mind with regard to the Hebrew Masoretic OT text. It never says “pharisaic’ text. He adds this word to promote his false agenda.” You say: “These quotes *DO* INCLUDE examples from the ‘apocryphal’ books (removed from the O.T. by the ‘Jews’ & the protestants!)” Ray: ” Again, according to Jesus Christ, the apocrypha was not part of the Bible! Why does he have trouble believing the Words on the page?” You state: “This clearly proves that Jesus and His apostles read from the Septuagint INCLUDING the ‘deuterocanonicals’.” Ray:
    This is not clear at all. Jesus Christ was a Jew…He spoke Hebrew. His apostles were Jewish…they spoke Hebrew. Why would they need an OT translated into Greek??”

    You write: “Here – for you – is just one quote which IS found in the Septuagint… But IS *NOT* found in the Masoretic Hebrew:
    “Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and you shall call His name Immanuel.”
    - Matt 1:23/Isaiah 7:14″ Ray answers:

    I beg to differ: Isaiah 7:14 (KJV) Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. (this is from the Hebrew Masoretic text) The verse from the Septuagint sounds like God is telling the prophet Isaiah to call His name Immanuel. The Hebrew Masoretic verse is correct in that the Lord’s mother Mary will call His name Immanuel. This is a blatant mistake!
    Matthew 1:23 (KJV) Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
    Notice something here Debbie (as I stated before in my first response to him), this man started with a false premise. Doing this does not bring you to the right conclusion. It brings no honor to the Lord. His last point above makes my case. Not only is his statement about Isaiah7:14 coming from the Septuagint wrong, the verse is also incorrect. This was easily verified from a verse in the Masoretic Hebrew test!
    I have some questions for him:
    1. Do you now believe that you are wrong?
    2. Are you still going to deny the facts?
    3. I know you are Catholic. I also came out of that religion. Would you be interested in any “free” information regarding the salvation of your soul?
    4. Catholic doctrine teaches no assurance of heaven after physical death. If you believe this, are you willing to gamble on the eternal destination of your soul?
    5. The truthful, unbiased information regarding this most important issue is found in the King James Bible. Would you allow me to send you a “free” copy of the truth?
    If you would like to receive this information (as my gift to you), give your contact information to Debbie and I will be happy to mail you the Bible and other information that could help your understanding regarding spiritual matters.
    Redeeming the time,
    Pastor Ray

    Prodigal Son, I don’t pretend that I’m not out of my league on these issues. I’m very grateful for Pastor Ray’s help in this reply. My email contact information is on my blog site at http://www.midactsdisp.blogspot.com if you’d like to take Ray up on his offer of a free KJV. I wish you all the best.

    Mark Glenn, please accept my apologies for the length of this discussion and my thanks for allowing it.

    Deborah

  114. #114 by magginkat on March 17, 2010 - 5:46 pm

    “The Christian god is a three headed monster, cruel, vengeful, and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites.”

    “Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.”

    “And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors.”

    – Thomas Jefferson

  115. #115 by Deborah Collins on March 18, 2010 - 1:12 am

    Magginkat:

    Don’t make the common mistake of confusing real Christians with those duped by the Catholic Church, which is who Jerrerson was referring to when he mentions “priests”, btw. Of course, he was a Deist, and thus unsaved as he did not trust God in the flesh, the Lord Jesus Christ, according to the holy Scriptures.

    As for fools and hypocrites…there’s always room for one more! Believe and be saved in spite of your flaws! Christ died to pay for them and rose again to prove it.

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s

Follow

Get every new post delivered to your Inbox.

Join 3,654 other followers

%d bloggers like this: